My Trouble Free Pool - Copper Sulfate

[Donldson]

The fact that copper is a micro-nutrient has no bearing on its usefulness in a pool. Virtually every pool pump uses copper coils to operate, not to mention the power it uses is transmitted via copper. None of that means it belongs in the water itself.

Copper is a great algaecide, but its side effects make it one of the worst options. Similar to lead being a great additive to gasoline to prevent engine knock doesn't mean it is worth the side effects. Proper chlorination is key to both sanitation of pool water and oxidation of contaminates, there's no reason to not use the proper amounts to prevent algae. As I said years ago further up (what is it with "alternative" defenders and resurrecting long-forgotten threads?) that if you have to add a dozen caveats on not allowing levels to deviate even the slightest or things will go horribly wrong, then it's a pretty junk method.

Even if chlorine were scarce (in which case algae is the absolute least of your worries when it comes to a pool) there are better methods available to reduce the water's propensity of algae growth. And if the argument I'm hearing (honestly if you have a point other than "I like copper and don't like hearing bad things about it" I can't seem to find it) is that you've got nothing else available then it's not a very good argument. There's a scene in Battlefield Earth where the humans are starving so they resort to eating rats and their alien captors take that to mean that rat is a great food option to entice the humans. Using the only thing available doesn't make it the best thing, it makes it your only choice. "I don't have anything better" isn't a glowing recommendation. It shouldn't even be a recommendation, and when it comes to TFP pools it never is.

 

[Okoth]

If your chlorine level is right, copper serves no purpose in the water. Chlorine alone will keep the water crystal clear. There is no benefit from adding copper.

That is great news John. I always thought that you need to measure the the whole bunch like FC, TC, TA, Hardness, CYA.

I don't agree with it, in my case chlorine doesn't keep my pool crystal clear. In fact, when I shock the pool it becomes green. Algae seem to love it.

I would really appreciate if you could share your ideas about my second question in this thread Is this Algae?. All I have have is chlorine to keep the pool clear and strangely enough algae still grows.

I'm seriously thinking to have my chlorine at about 2-3, pH at 7.2 and copper sulfate max 0.5 ppm. If you read my thread, you'll know why. And in my case copper sulfate can make an end to all the hassle of cleaning the pool at least 3x a week.

All right, I'm going to clean the pool again, like yesterday...

 

[JohnT]

That is great news John. I always thought that you need to measure the the whole bunch like FC, TC, TA, Hardness, CYA.

I don't agree with it, in my case chlorine doesn't keep my pool crystal clear. In fact, when I shock the pool it becomes green. Algae seem to love it.

I would really appreciate if you could share your ideas about my second question in this thread Is this Algae?. All I have have is chlorine to keep the pool clear and strangely enough algae still grows.

I'm seriously thinking to have my chlorine at about 2-3, pH at 7.2 and copper sulfate max 0.5 ppm. If you read my thread, you'll know why. And in my case copper sulfate can make an end to all the hassle of cleaning the pool at least 3x a week.

All right, I'm going to clean the pool again, like yesterday...

If your pool turns green when you shock, you have metals. Copper or iron. With a blue pool, the yellow color of the iron can look green.

 

[Pv2]

If your pool turns green when you shock, you have metals. Copper or iron. With a blue pool, the yellow color of the iron can look green.

obviously the metal is...

 

[Okoth]

Sorry John, I wasn't clear. It's not the metals, it's really algae growing. Some spots here and there, getting bigger, floor and wall, and in the long run the water itself becomes cloudy and then green if I wait long enough. Still a mystery to me why that happens because I can't test the water other than pH and chlorine. Very frustrating. But that's for the other threat

 

[Okoth]

I'm sure it's not metals, but let's say it is the metals, what metals would it be? I'm planning to take a pool water sample to the lab for testing as soon as the pool is stable again. Want to know what's in it. Copper obviously, iron, zinc. Any other?

 

[Stoopalini]

Those who are in favor of chlorine, here is an abstract of a scientific study about chlorine.
In this study, we show that although the growth and behaviors of experimental rats were not affected, their health, training effects and metabolic profiles were significantly affected by a 12-week swimming training program in chlorinated water identical to that of public pools. Interestingly, the eyes and skin are the organs that are more directly affected than the lungs by the irritants in chlorinated water; instead of chlorination, training intensity, training frequency and choking on water may be the primary factors for lung damage induced by swimming.

Please link the study, if you're going to quote information from it. I'd bet there was no CYA in the water, as CYA is typically not permitted in public pools. A better study for this discussion would be one which used chlorinated water identical to that of private pools (ie: ones which use CYA), not public pools.

I'm sure it's not metals, but let's say it is the metals, what metals would it be? I'm planning to take a pool water sample to the lab for testing as soon as the pool is stable again. Want to know what's in it. Copper obviously, iron, zinc. Any other?

Copper can stain the pool's surface and turn the water green. Especially when increasing the chlorine levels (ie: like when shocking).

You can test for copper and iron yourself, with the LaMotte 2994 kit.

 

[Okoth]

Please link the study, if you're going to quote information from it. I'd bet there was no CYA in the water, as CYA is typically not permitted in public pools. A better study for this discussion would be one which used chlorinated water identical to that of private pools (ie: ones which use CYA), not public pools.

Sure, https://www.researchgate.net/public...d_the_Corresponding_Metabolic_Stress_Pathways

I found it back again by copy and paste the quote into Google.

Copper can stain the pool's surface and turn the water green. Especially when increasing the chlorine levels (ie: like when shocking).

Fully agree, especially when the copper in the pool is above 0.5ppm

You can test for copper and iron yourself, with the LaMotte 2994 kit.

No I can't, because Amazon doesn't ship it to my country. They also don't ship other testing kits to Indonesia. Other companies don't even reply if I ask them whether they ship to Indonesia. I don't have the luxury you guys have. I have only this

- 20g and 200g TCCA tablets for shocking and maintenance
- Soda ash
- Sodium bisulfate
- OTO chlorine liquid with a level between 0.3 - 3
- digital pH meter
- useless testing strips for FC, TC, TA, Hardness, CYA

I have to maintain the pool with only this. That is why I consider copper sulfate because up to now it's pretty hard to keep the pool crystal clear. I'm open for ideas but I won't get them here. I've asked in this thread: Is this Algae? and only Texas Splash replied (which I'm happy with). It looks like Donldson has some ideas and I will ask him.

May I invite you guys to maintain a pool with only the things I have for a year ?

 

[Okoth]

The fact that copper is a micro-nutrient has no bearing on its usefulness in a pool. Virtually every pool pump uses copper coils to operate, not to mention the power it uses is transmitted via copper. None of that means it belongs in the water itself.

Copper is a great algaecide, but its side effects make it one of the worst options. Similar to lead being a great additive to gasoline to prevent engine knock doesn't mean it is worth the side effects. Proper chlorination is key to both sanitation of pool water and oxidation of contaminates, there's no reason to not use the proper amounts to prevent algae. As I said years ago further up (what is it with "alternative" defenders and resurrecting long-forgotten threads?) that if you have to add a dozen caveats on not allowing levels to deviate even the slightest or things will go horribly wrong, then it's a pretty junk method.

Even if chlorine were scarce (in which case algae is the absolute least of your worries when it comes to a pool) there are better methods available to reduce the water's propensity of algae growth. And if the argument I'm hearing (honestly if you have a point other than "I like copper and don't like hearing bad things about it" I can't seem to find it) is that you've got nothing else available then it's not a very good argument. There's a scene in Battlefield Earth where the humans are starving so they resort to eating rats and their alien captors take that to mean that rat is a great food option to entice the humans. Using the only thing available doesn't make it the best thing, it makes it your only choice. "I don't have anything better" isn't a glowing recommendation. It shouldn't even be a recommendation, and when it comes to TFP pools it never is.

I think you missed this, Donldson: "Btw I'm not a fan of copper sulfate and I don't think you should use it if you can maintain your pool crystal clear".

But I am happy you have better methods available to reduce the water's propensity of algae growth. I would love to use them. So, this is what I have

- 20g and 200g TCCA tablets for shocking and maintenance
- Soda ash
- Sodium bisulfate
- OTO chlorine liquid with a level between 0.3 - 3
- digital pH meter
- useless testing strips for FC, TC, TA, Hardness, CYA

How should I use them to keep my pool crystal clear? Maybe you'd like to answer it here Is this Algae?

Thank you in advance.

Btw if anyone can suggest other chemicals than copper sulfate to prevent algae from growing (maybe phosphate?) please let me know. I'm open to anything.

 

[Stoopalini]

Can you not get plain bleach (ie: sodium hypochlorite) in Indonesia?

 

[Okoth]

Can you not get plain bleach (ie: sodium hypochlorite) in Indonesia?

Yes there is. Would that be better than TCCA?

 

[Flying Tivo]

Lets agree that you have algae. With what you have to test, you wont be able to maintain a crystal clear pool. Sorry that you are in that situation but without a proper CYA test you wont know what Cl levels to maintain. I definately understand why you are using copper, but that does not mean its the right way to do it.
good luck!

 

[Stoopalini]

Plain Bleach and Liquid Chlorine are both Sodium Hypochlorite; so yes, you can use bleach to keep the water sanitary.

The PPM you would target is based on how much CYA is in the water.

 

[Okoth]

Lets agree that you have algae. With what you have to test, you wont be able to maintain a crystal clear pool. Sorry that you are in that situation but without a proper CYA test you wont know what Cl levels to maintain. I definately understand why you are using copper, but that does not mean its the right way to do it.
good luck!

Yes, I rather not use it, but cleaning the pool 3x a week is also not an option anymore. I'm not using copper sulfate. I'm just saying that there might be situations one might consider it. If there is an alternative I don't need to use it.

This is how pool cleaners do here:
In a 14.000 gallon pool they add
- 1kg of copper sulfate (which will get you to a copper ppm of 5ppm, not 0.5)
- 1 200g tablet of TCCA
- if there is still algae, they use chlorine granular
- then add with PAC if the water is not clear

The one I met 2 weeks ago was very happy the pools he maintain were crystal clear. I was shocked... That's why I want to keep it in my own hands.

My pool is clear after I shocked, drained and added 4200 gallons. Works for my pool, don't know why, but I want to stop doing that. CYA cannot be high because that's already the second time within a month.

I'm still continuing copper tests because I need an alternative if I cannot test, lower or raise the CYA... I added pool water in a 1.5 gallon bucket with CL of 5, pH of 6.1 and 1 gram of copper sulfate. There is a yellow layer at the bottom of the bucket. This is with 50x the normal copper dose. Not a good idea. Going to test with 25x the dose and what an effect that has. Not recommended for anyone else

 

[Okoth]

Plain Bleach and Liquid Chlorine are both Sodium Hypochlorite; so yes, you can use bleach to keep the water sanitary.

The PPM you would target is based on how much CYA is in the water.

I'm going to do my best to get a CYA test kit. Thanks

 

[needsajet]

You can try poolvacparts in Arizona. They ship internationally. Get the K-2006C test kit and order extra FAS and CYA test supplies.

Another thing to start shopping for is a salt water chlorine generator, which might also make your life a lot easier. It's a higher upfront cost, but works out pretty similar over a period of 3-5 years, to buying bleach or pool chlorinating liquid, probably quicker payback in a hot climate.

 

[Okoth]

Thank you, needsajet, I'll contact poolvacparts.

A salt water chlorine generator might be an option indeed, and I think the pool manufacturer offers it. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Bperry]

Not sure if it was obvious or not but TCCA =trichlor= CYA stabilized chlorine. If you’ve been using those to maintain chlorine, the CYA level may be quite high. And if your chlorine level is only 3ppm, is a likely reason for why there’s algae.

 

[Okoth]

Yes that was my thought as well. I trying to find ways to get the CYA tested. So far no luck. The Australian supplier says that they want but cannot ship to Indonesia due to import export restrictions on chemicals. So I need to sit it out until I will travel myself or someone comes this way.

What changed my mind about the CYA level in the water is that I have drained at least half of the amount water within the last month. Previous months I also drained about 3.000 gallons after shocking the pool because the chlorine level remained high after a week and looked like became active after draining water because the algae disappeared. Looked like a chlorine lock. I was thinking about adding less shock because of the "chlorine lock", just as an experiment. Pool is 14.000 gallons and I put in 1kg 20g TCCA shock tablets. Great huh, more CYA...

Would it be possible to use liquid chlorine to shock, and if yes, how much? I know what the reply will be (depends on the chemicals levels in the pool), but I'm looking for something to work with.

That's why I wrote: "Btw I'm not a fan of copper sulfate and I don't think you should use it if you can maintain your pool crystal clear, but there are situations that people might consider it." Can't test much, not many chemicals I can buy so I need to look for alternatives.

 

[Bperry]

Yes that was my thought as well. I trying to find ways to get the CYA tested. So far no luck. The Australian supplier says that they want but cannot ship to Indonesia due to import export restrictions on chemicals. So I need to sit it out until I will travel myself or someone comes this way.

What changed my mind about the CYA level in the water is that I have drained at least half of the amount water within the last month. Previous months I also drained about 3.000 gallons after shocking the pool because the chlorine level remained high after a week and looked like became active after draining water because the algae disappeared. Looked like a chlorine lock. I was thinking about adding less shock because of the "chlorine lock", just as an experiment. Pool is 14.000 gallons and I put in 1kg 20g TCCA shock tablets. Great huh, more CYA...

Would it be possible to use liquid chlorine to shock, and if yes, how much? I know what the reply will be (depends on the chemicals levels in the pool), but I'm looking for something to work with.

That's why I wrote: "Btw I'm not a fan of copper sulfate and I don't think you should use it if you can maintain your pool crystal clear, but there are situations that people might consider it." Can't test much, not many chemicals I can buy so I need to look for alternatives.

The answer will be yes to liquid chlorine. Its a much better alternative to trichlor as it doesn't have the side effects of it. But your kinda walking blind without a way to test.