MasterTemp 400 control point issue / Intellicenter control

[Turbo1Ton]

So it seems that when you schedule a heater function in your Intellicenter (FW 1.064) that you cannot adjust the control point of the heater during the scheduled time. MasterTemp has the 6 button membrane and the newer control board w/RS485 control and is hooked up via RS485.

Example...

I set my spa to run every Friday from 6-8 pm, in order to exercise the heater to ensure that it is operating properly, and that weekly operation (hopefully) prevents critters from nesting in it. I set the heater at 96 degrees, as that is significantly above the 68 degree minimum required for the MasterTemp operation, and should give it enough heat to burn out any corrosive condensation that might collect during the colder water temp operation.

This evening, the wife decided to take advantage that the spa was already running and went and jumped in. She attempted to adjust it up to 99 (using the Intellicenter) from 96 and while the call for heat signal worked and caused the pump speed to increase and heater bypass valve to operate, the heater was stuck at a 96 degree max setpoint. I didn't think to check if it would allow it to adjust the other direction.

Edit - as soon as the schedule was over, I was able to adjust the temp as expected.

This seems ridiculous to me. Why would I not want the ability to adjust the setpoint? I don't want to necessarily heat to 100 or 104 just to exercise the heater. But I guess I am going to have to if I want the ability to adjust the temps up.

Does anyone else schedule a time for their spa to run and can confirm this is happening? Or is someone willing to create a schedule to test this theory?

--Jeff

Second Edit - added IC FW version to above.

 

[ajw22]

She attempted to adjust it up to 99 from 96 and while the call for heat signal worked and caused the pump speed to increase and heater bypass valve to operate, the heater was stuck at a 96 degree max setpoint.

Did your wife adjust it to 99 on the IntelliCenter or the MasterTemp control panel?

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Did your wife adjust it to 99 on the IntelliCenter or the MasterTemp control panel?

Sorry for not clearly indicating that. Edited above for clarity.

Adjusted it on the Intellicenter. The heater control panel is disabled when connected via RS485. Heater control panel does display the set temp and the water temp though. That's how I figured out it wouldn't go higher.

Also added that as soon as the schedule ended, the temperature adjustment worked as expected.

--Jeff

 

[TonyR68]

Hi Jeff,

I’ve the same setup with the Connected MasterTemp and using RS485. I did a test this morning based on your scenario above. I did it first with firmware 1.064 and then again with 2.006. I can confirm that in both firmware instances, I had the same issue you described. While “Scheduled”, IntelliCenter does not pass an adjusted Heating Set Point to the MasterTemp heater. Bug!

Best regards

Tony

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Hi Jeff,

I’ve the same setup with the Connected MasterTemp and using RS485. I did a test this morning based on your scenario above. I did it first with firmware 1.064 and then again with 2.006. I can confirm that in both firmware instances, I had the same issue you described. While “Scheduled”, IntelliCenter does not pass an adjusted Heating Set Point to the MasterTemp heater. Bug!

Best regards

Tony

Thanks Tony, for doing this. Appreciate the confirmation so that I at least know its nothing specific to just my setup.

I guess I'll call Pentair on Monday and put this in as an issue.

--Jeff

 

[ajw22]

IntelliCenter does not pass an adjusted Heating Set Point to the MasterTemp heater.

Help me understand how the Connected MasterTemp heater does temperature control and interacts with the IntelliCenter using the RS-485.

I do not have the connected heater and have the old Mastertemp controlled by the firemans switch to the IntelliCenter.

With the firemans switch there is no communication between the IntelliCenter and the MasterTemp. The MasterTemp temperature control and thermostat is not used. And the Intellicenter simply cycles the heater on and off as necessary using its own water temperature sensor to the heater set point in the IntelliCenter.

Is it working differently with the RS-485 control?

Is the heat set point in the IntelliCenter being sent to the MasterTemp heater?

Is the IntellCenter telling the Mastertemp when to cycle on and off or does the MasterTemp now do the cycling based on a set point given to it by the IntelliCenter?

Does the heater set point entered on the IntelliCenter display on the Mastertemp LCD panel during operation?

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Is it working differently with the RS-485 control?

Works differently than the fireman's switch control, yes.

Is the heat set point in the IntelliCenter being sent to the MasterTemp heater?

Correct. The IntelliCenter will send the set point to the MasterTemp. The display on the MasterTemp will show actual temperature, assumedly from the internal MT temp sensor, and also displays the setpoint that is in the IntelliCenter.

Is the IntellCenter telling the Mastertemp when to cycle on and off or does the MasterTemp now do the cycling based on a set point given to it by the IntelliCenter?

Similar to the connected pumps, the MasterTemp remains 'awake' the entire time and the IntelliCenter will tell the MasterTemp when there is a call for heat, based on the setpoint.

Does the heater set point entered on the IntelliCenter display on the Mastertemp LCD panel during operation?

Yes. You see both the MasterTemp temperature from the onboard temp sensor, as well as the setpoint in the IntelliCenter.

I had some testing I posted for RSTrouse last fall. Let me see if I can find that thread. It has a better description of what the new RS485 connectivity does.

--Jeff

 

[TonyR68]

Help me understand how the Connected MasterTemp heater does temperature control and interacts with the IntelliCenter using the RS-485.

I do not have the connected heater and have the old Mastertemp controlled by the firemans switch to the IntelliCenter.

With the firemans switch there is no communication between the IntelliCenter and the MasterTemp. The MasterTemp temperature control and thermostat is not used. And the Intellicenter simply cycles the heater on and off as necessary using its own water temperature sensor to the heater set point in the IntelliCenter.

Is it working differently with the RS-485 control?

Is the heat set point in the IntelliCenter being sent to the MasterTemp heater?

Is the IntellCenter telling the Mastertemp when to cycle on and off or does the MasterTemp now do the cycling based on a set point given to it by the IntelliCenter?

Does the heater set point entered on the IntelliCenter display on the Mastertemp LCD panel during operation?

When connected, via RS485 the keypad on the MasterTemp is display only. I cannot adjust the set point directly in the MasterTemp. IntelliCenter passes the requested Heater Set Point to the MasterTemp and then the MasterTemp takes over to determine, for example, when to call for heat or when to toggle the auto bypass once Set Point has been reached or more heating is needed. IntelliCenter also tells the MasterTemp if I’m heating the pool or the spa.

The water temperature displayed on the MasterTemp is based on the MasterTemp thermostat . This is not coming from the IntelliCenter (I check this previously by calibrating the IntelliCenter water Sensor by +10 degrees. It did not change the water temp on the MasterTemp)

Best regards

Tony

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I had some testing I posted for RSTrouse last fall. Let me see if I can find that thread. It has a better description of what the new RS485 connectivity does.

Holy cow, that was 2021. Not last fall.

Bummer... I did this on the nodejs github repository, so no thread here to link to. I can post the github issue if anyone is interested in reading through it, but it was mostly done to work out issues with Nodejs pool controller, not anything on IntelliCenter.

--Jeff

 

[ajw22]

Similar to the connected pumps, the MasterTemp remains 'awake' the entire time and the IntelliCenter will tell the MasterTemp when there is a call for heat, based on the setpoint.

If the IntelliCenter is telling when there is a call for heat then the IntelliCenter is acting as the thermostat.

IntelliCenter passes the requested Heater Set Point to the MasterTemp and then the MasterTemp takes over to determine, for example, when to call for heat or when to toggle the auto bypass once Set Point has been reached or more heating is needed.

Tony is saying the MasterTemp is acting as the thermostat and cycling when to call for heat.

Thus my confusion, which is it?

IntelliCenter also tells the MasterTemp if I’m heating the pool or the spa.

Why does that matter? It is irrelevant if the body of water being heated is a pool or spa.

The water temperature displayed on the MasterTemp is based on the MasterTemp thermostat .

That is understandable and has always been that way. There are two separate water temperature sensors - one on the IntelliCenter and one on the MasterTemp. Each control panel displays its water temperature.

Which device is acting as the thermostat using its water temperature to cycle the heater to maintain the setpoint?

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Which device is acting as the thermostat using its water temperature to cycle the heater to maintain the setpoint?

Sorry, my horrible explanation is confusing things. The MasterTemp sensor is what controls the heater to cycle. But the IntelliCenter tells it if the heater should be active or not (heater on/off). That is what I was trying to say. I was using the term 'call for heat' incorrectly.

Why does that matter? It is irrelevant if the body of water being heated is a pool or spa.

It only matters so the heater local display shows the correct body of water. That is all.

--Jeff

 

[ajw22]

The MasterTemp sensor is what controls the heater to cycle. But the IntelliCenter tells it if the heater should be active or not (heater on/off).

Great! It is important to understand which device is performing the thermostat function since we have folks who show up here with their pool/spa not getting to the desired temperature. One of the first things to determine will be if they have a Connected MasterTemp using RS-485 or old or new MasterTemp using the Firemans Switch.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Great! It is important to understand which device is performing the thermostat function since we have folks who show up here with their pool/spa not getting to the desired temperature. One of the first things to determine will be if they have a Connected MasterTemp using RS-485 or old or new MasterTemp using the Firemans Switch.

I am going to play around with this a little more this afternoon, just for my own sanity. I'll advise if anything is different from what has been discussed previously.

--Jeff

 

[TonyR68]

FYI.

I calibrated the IntelliCenter water sensor to 10F below actual reading. IntelliCenter displays water temperature of 59F, while the true reading is actually 69F. On the IntelliCenter I request heating pool to 65F. On the MasterTemp it shows pool at 69F and the heating Set Point 65F. MasterTemp is not heating, IntelliCenter thinks it is…

Best regards

Tony

 

[rstrouse]

Lets see if I can clear some of this up. The MasterTemp protocol only deals with 3 pieces of information commanded by IntelliCenter and all the thermostat functions are contained in the heater. This information is sent on an interval and when the panel stops sending it the heater will re-enable its control panel. Interestingly, no cool-down data is sent to the heater but you can set it to your hearts delight in the UI.
* Pool Setpoint
* Spa Setpoint
* Call for heat to either pool or spa

The heater responds to with a few bits of information.
* Heater status (either heating to pool setpoint or heating to spa setpoint)
* Bits related to the current diagnostic status of the heater
* Cycle indicator for cooldown

While there is a lot more information bandied about with UltraTemp ETI hybrid heaters the heater itself performs the thermostat functions. The UltraTemp heat pump, on the other hand uses the thermostat functions of the OCP (IntelliCenter or *Touch).

While I can see why they did this for the hybrid heaters, the mismatch between the feels-like temperature requires you calibrate your MasterTemp to the pool temp or you will be sooooo confused.

 

[ajw22]

FYI.

I calibrated the IntelliCenter water sensor to 10F below actual reading. IntelliCenter displays water temperature of 59F, while the true reading is actually 69F. On the IntelliCenter I request heating pool to 65F. On the MasterTemp it shows pool at 69F and the heating Set Point 65F. MasterTemp is not heating, IntelliCenter thinks it is…

Best regards

Tony

Interesting. You would have thought the communication would be two way so the IntelliCenter tells the MasterTemp it is okay to heat and the MasterTemp tells the IntelliCenter when it is actually on or not.

This is one of the big flaws with consumer automation. No feedback loops from the devices to the IntelliCenter confirming that the pump is actually running or the heater is actually heating. The IntelliCenter just assumes the device is doing as instructed.

 

[ajw22]

LThe heater responds to with a few bits of information.
* Heater status (either heating to pool setpoint or heating to spa setpoint)

Is the heater status "heat enabled for cycling" or "heater actually generating heat"?

 

[rstrouse]

Is the heater status "heat enabled for cycling" or "heater actually generating heat"?

I believe it is heat enabled for cycling. In the outputs that I have seen (I don't have mine connected to RS485) the IntelliCenter status and the heater responses don't match up. Then again I am reliant on the observer telling me what the equipment is actually doing when they send a packet dump.

 

[TonyR68]

Interestingly, no cool-down data is sent to the heater but you can set it to your hearts delight in the UI.

Cooldown is internally set within the heater to 1 minute and cannot be user controlled/adjusted.