Magnesium vs NaCl

[JoyfulNoise]

Now do an analysis of proton hopping and the effects of charged double-layers at the anode and cathode with diffusion-limited versus concentration limited kinetics … don’t worry, I can wait …

 

[JoyfulNoise]

… oh, and don’t forget to include the effects of fluid flow the electric field and current distribution via the Navier-Stokes equations …

 

[duraleigh]

Wa-a-a-a-y too much information. I have to go lie down for an hour or two. Here's my take........."Dont use it!"

 

[JamesW]

Below, I added the green line for Magnesium chloride.

It tracks along pretty well with sodium chloride.

If you use roughly 80% of the salt (NaCl) weight for adding Magnesium chloride, the K-1766 and the conductivity meters should agree pretty closely.

In any case, it is best not to use it.

 

[JamesW]

 

[JamesW]

That's where I'm always a bit unsure how much ions really contribute to conductivity, as they actually have to discharge at the electrodes to create a current.

For conductivity, the electrons do not go through the water; the positively charged cations and negatively charged anions carry the charge and the current.

We think of current as the flow of electrons, but this is not accurate for the flow of current through water that contains charged ions.

 

[JamesW]

An electrolyte solution conducts electricity because of the movement of ions in the solution.

There are no electrons in the electrolyte.

In a wire, electrons move from the negative terminal of a battery to the positive terminal.

However, current is defined as the “movement of positive charge” because electrons were initially thought to be positively charged.

By the time it was discovered that electrons were actually negatively charged, the convention and definition were already set, so the flow of current is opposite to the flow of electrons.

In an electrolyte, positive charge moves towards the negative terminal of a battery and negative charge moves towards the to the positive terminal.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Can you please add in the relativistic effects caused by charges moving near the speed of light ? I believe the Dirac equations can help provide a solution …

 

[JamesW]

I believe the Dirac equations can help provide a solution …

Dirac?! Dirac?!

Don’t get me started about Dirac!

Paul still owes me $20.00 from a bet we made on October 05 1984 Friday about the permittivity of free space in a vacuum near the event horizon of a black hole.

I was able to prove that I was right on October 17 1984 Wednesday.

However, he “conveniently” died 3 days later October 20 1984 Saturday so that he wouldn’t have to pay me.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Dirac?! Dirac?!

Don’t get me started about Dirac!

Paul still owes me $20.00 from a bet we made on October 05 1984 Friday about the permittivity of free space in a vacuum near the event horizon of a black hole.

I was able to prove that I was right on October 17 1984 Wednesday.

However, he “conveniently” died 3 days later October 20 1984 Saturday so that he wouldn’t have to pay me.

What a cheapskate!!!

 

[mgtfp]

I understand that ions carry the current through the water. But don't the ions at the electrodes have to discharge and either take up electrons or release electrons so that the current can continue through the metal of the attached electric circuit?

At the anode of a SWG we have:
2Cl- --> Cl2(g) + 2e-

At the cathode we have:
2H2O + 2e- --> H2(g) + 2OH

But we don't get
Na+ + e- --> metallic Na
at the cathode.

Unless you used for example quicksilver as cathode material that has a higher overpotential for the formation of H2 and forms an alloy with the metallic Na.

Without transfer of electrons between ions and electrodes no current can flow.

So, most ions don't contribute directly to the current flow, unless there is a redox reaction happening. I guess, there still is an indirect contribution by their ionic strength effect on the activity of the ions that do contribute to the redox reactions.

 

[mgtfp]

I missed your first reply first with the AC current, thread was split over two pages now. That explains it.

Thanks.

 

[JamesW]

What a cheapskate!!!

I suspect that he faked his own death and he is probably living it up on my $20.00 on some island somewhere having a big laugh.

 

[mgtfp]

I guess that's where Aussie SWGs generally work with Mg Salt, as they don't make a salinity measurement, they only adjust the voltage to the required DC current that is carried by Cl-. If that voltage can't be reached, they assume low salt.

The problem lies in maintaining correct chloride levels based on pool store testing, as they will only use conductivity meters, and they are not calibrated to the presence of magnesium. But if titration for chloride is used, it would generally work.

But I certainly wouldn't recommend it.

 

[mgtfp]

Bit of a slap in the face moment. Of course they would use AC.

 

[JamesW]

If the voltage was DC, then you would get a buildup of charge at the plates and the current would stop flowing unless you had electrolysis.

With AC, the voltage changes polarity based on the frequency.

Basically, the electrons go right up to the water, but they do not actually go into the water.

The ions in the water go right up to the sensor plates.

So, the ions and electrons are as close to each other as the electrons in the wire are to each other.

So, the water between the plates is the conductor and it acts just like a metal wire where the ions are acting like electrons to carry the charge and the energy due to the alternating electric and magnetic field.

Even in a wire for AC, the electrons do not move that much.

They basically oscillate back and forth as the electric and magnetic fields alternate and the current, charge and energy is carried along.

Part of the problem when talking about things like electrons, current, voltage, power, energy and fields is that we try to represent quantum processes in macroscopic terms when there are no accurate macroscopic term that apply.

We talk about the particle or wavefunction, but these are just crude approximations of something that we do not fully understand.

 

[mgtfp]

Yeah, had bit of a brain fart there. Initially, I had exactly that in mind, when I said in my earlier post

I can see how it would affect the reading of meters (including salinity measurements in SWGs) as they assume the chloride to come with sodium and consider that for the calibration.

I just wanted to make the point that in SWGs that don't use a salinity measurement to control the chlorine output, the Mg shouldn't interfere too much as it doesn't get electrolyzed. And then got my brain a bit twisted along the way...

 

[JamesW]

I have decided to manufacture and sell a special blend of salt consisting of sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium chloride and lithium chloride.

The ratio will be designed to make sure that each salt provides 1/4 of the total conductivity.

This way, each salt will make an equal contribution to the conductivity.

Therefore, any test that you do will be accurate regardless of the units you use.

I will also include 117 “Trade Secret” Ingredients.

I will write the SDS in ancient Sanskrit and then encrypt it with an NSA grade encryption algorithm that not even a quantum computer could break.

The salt will sell for $10.00 per pound, which is a bargain for the “117-in-1” formula.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I have decided to manufacture and sell a special blend of salt consisting of sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium chloride and lithium chloride.

The ratio will be designed to make sure that each salt provides 1/4 of the total conductivity.

This way, each salt will make an equal contribution to the conductivity.

Therefore, any test that you do will be accurate regardless of the units you use.

I will also include 117 “Trade Secret” Ingredients.

I will write the SDS in ancient Sanskrit and then encrypt it with an NSA grade encryption algorithm that not even a quantum computer could break.

The salt will sell for $10.00 per pound, which is a bargain for the “117-in-1” formula.

And the lithium salt will promote “mental calmness” so you can add on the naturopathic benefits in the marketing.

 

[JamesW]

And the lithium salt will promote “mental calmness” so you can add on the naturopathic benefits in the marketing.

See, you get it.

I don't know why everyone else thinks I'm crazy.