Looking for an alternative to Softswim Assist (20% sodium chlorite)......

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kimkats said:
Clear water = TFP = good test kit and chlorine.

Since you are at the end of your swim season why not convert now?

Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

Look at this link. Look at the tiny bit of money you would need to use these AND how easy they are to find in your local stores that are NOT pool stores!

Kim
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OK....I get it....liquid chlorine / bleach. Certainly easy enough. Now I want to know this...cause this has been in the back of my mind EVERY time I come here...what is the water like in terms of 1) odor (I've been to so many chlorinated hotel pools where you practically gag when you walk in the room) 2) feel - To this day I think the baquacil / soft swim water has a much smoother, silkier feel to it 3) residual after swimming....the one thing my wife does not like is that when we had chlorine she always felt like she had to wash her hair everytime after swimming. If I tell her I've started dumping bleach in the pool, I doubt if she'll ever want to go back in quite honestly. And, every time I've ever swam in a chlorine pool OR showered in places where the water is chlorinated, I can always smell that chlorine on me. We have well water and so there is absolutely no odor. So I guess I perhaps notice it more readily than someone who is on municipal, treated water. Another thing that holds me back is the worry that I will once again run into a chlorine demand situation. That got to be almost as frustrating as some of these biguanide issues! A friend of mine and myself gave up using chlorine for exactly that reason. Bleach is really strong stuff. I have a tough time with the thought of dumping that into the pool! And forget those chlorine sticks...hated using them the entire time I was on chlorine.

Thanks.
 
1) There is basically no odor ... you can not compare it to hotel pools that are under-chlorinated. You are smelling the CC (byproduct of waste breaking down).

2) Feel like water ;) you can add salt to make it feel softer and/or add borates to make it silkier

3) Ideally you should always bathe after swimming. Right now I smell more like sunscreen than chlorine :D

My wife was the same way about adding bleach ... she will get over it when she sees how clear the water is :lol:

There is no such thing as "chlorine demand" ... that is just a term that pool stores use usually when the pool has way too much stabilizer in it from using the sticks or pucks or powders.
 
jblizzle said:
1) There is basically no odor ... you can not compare it to hotel pools that are under-chlorinated. You are smelling the CC (byproduct of waste breaking down).

2) Feel like water ;) you can add salt to make it feel softer and/or add borates to make it silkier

3) Ideally you should always bathe after swimming. Right now I smell more like sunscreen than chlorine :D

My wife was the same way about adding bleach ... she will get over it when she sees how clear the water is :lol:

There is no such thing as "chlorine demand" ... that is just a term that pool stores use usually when the pool has way too much stabilizer in it from using the sticks or pucks or powders.
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Thanks. Not sure about the item under "3"...I'm the one that is obsessed over the water clarity.

Here is the recommendation I got from the pool store to convert from Baq to Chlorine (which, by the way, they recommend. The rep at the store whom I've dealt with for many years just told me that she is really not a fan of Biguanide OR, surprisingly, DE filters either...found that a bit surprising. So here is what I got from her...

To switch back to chlorine you need to stop adding B to the
pool and get the levels down under 8ppm.....At that point we will use a
chlorine shock to get rid of the rest of the B and the slime and mold. You
can easily go through 25-50lbs of shock to accomplish that. Once chlorine
is stable it becomes a 3 step program. Sticks in the skimmer, shock once a
week and algae preventative. Extremely simple and the water is beautiful.


Thoughts???

- - - Updated - - -

jblizzle said:
Seems like your first step should be to stop talking to the pool store ... Who have a $$$ interest in you not changing your method. Seems generally most pool store employees have very little understanding of the chemistry or how to maintain a pool.
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Quite the contrary...the pool store has just suggested that I DO convert over to chlorine. She admitted that the Baquacil is just "too much trouble".

Let me do some thinking about the use of bleach....that's going to be a tough one to sell myself on. That picture of the pool turning colors when the bleach was added frankly scares me....!
 
I stand by my statement You quoted.
- That is not the process we recommend for converting.
- We do not recommend the use of sticks.
- We do not recommend weekly "shocking".
- We also do not recommend the use of algaecide.

So basically the only thing we agree on is that you should convert. ;)

- - - Updated - - -

To add about #3: Anytime you swim, after you get out, any water that evaporates off of you will leave behind whatever chemicals were in the water. That can lead to the chlorine smell or other irritations. Just rinse off ... add a shower out my the pool. Takes less than 30 seconds.
 
The pool store methods are the reason you switched to Baq in the first place. Doing the same thing expecting different results is insanity. If you try anything new then let it be TFPC. Do the conversion our way, do the testing and dosing our way, and see for yourself what all the noise is about. Then if you and your wife are not impressed you can continue looking at other options. Right now you are swimming around in mold infested water, chlorine can't possibly be worse!

I would be willing to wager though that within 1 full season of TFPC you will be one of its biggest proponents. With all of your reluctance to switch you will be the first to tell people not to put it off like you did. "I wish I had done this years earlier, don't wait," you will tell the newbs.

From my HTC One via Tapatalk
 
Just read some of the many threads on this forum on Baquacil from a Google search in the upper-right and you can also see what the conversion looks like. My only concern is that if you used a lot of CDX then that will have a chlorine demand beyond the initial conversion step.
 
Sometimes the quickest, easiest and most cost effective solution is to drain and refill. I know for many on the forum it's like admitting defeat, but sometimes it really the way to go.
 

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+1 ;) In this case, with CDX history, I wonder if partial draining or ultimate complete draining might be more cost effective (eg savings in ultimate chlorine use) and less hassle than conversion alone.

I don't think drinking equals defeat...the goal of TFP is efficacy in terms of cost and hassle ...and in some cases that spells drain ;)
 
No way would I consider even partial draining. Pool was just drained last summer and fresh fill added following re plastering. I think I need a break from all of this for awhile. Store tells me one thing and TFP something different. I have found quite a few posts here that report cloudy water even using your methods. I'm sure I'll probably wind up doing it your way but will not even consider draining.
 
Your in PA. Why not partial drain? Water should be plentiful out there, no? At least it wouldn't be punishable by fines if you were to do a partial drain like me in So Cal. I had to do a partial drain a few weeks back because my salt level was too high. And because I'm in California and were deep into drought conditions we are on stage 2 water restrictions for my city which means not filling existing pools more than 1 foot a month and no draining to the street. So I drained into my sewer to hide the draining all the while feeling like a criminal for just doing a half drain of my pool. I haven't received my water bill yet and I'm a little worried. First offense is a possible $100 fine. Hopefully I just get a warning on my bill.
 
Hi Keith.

I'm not going to brow beat you. YOu have to make the choice on your own. Just know that I've read a few of your threads and I know 1st hand the reasons for your reluctance. I started experiencing much of what you are with my water a few seasons ago after I replaced my liner. Two seasons ago, I spend almost $1,000 fighting the blue beast for months before I could make out the bottom of the deep end and even then it was just barely. I had spend $3,600 on a new liner, two trucks worth of water the year before, and I couldn't even make out the pattern that I spent all that money on.

When I told my wife I wanted to convert to chlorine earlier this year, she was very apprehensive as well. She shuttered at the notion of "haphazardly dumping bleach" into the water (Not knowing the active ingredient is the same as liquid chlorine.). She wanted me to consult an "expert" before I did anything (Sorry, TFPers, she didn't think too highly of you're expertise, initially). Even talking to one of my best friends, who she knew was credible and who made the conversion 5 years ago, wasn't good enough. Along with her fear about bleach, she also felt the same about the smell.

The first thing I did to allay her concern was show her pictures in a few threads on this site. Not just conversion threads, but green-lagoon-to-perfectly clear pix as well.

Second, I stopped calling the chemical, "bleach," Mentally it made her feel better to hear it called: Liquid chlorine.

Third, I explained the liquid chlorine at even 8.25% Sodium Hypochlorite is extremely concentrated (8.25 parts per 100). However, once it hits the pool water, the concentration dilutes to 1/20,000th of the intensity out of the bottle.

She had to experience the smell, or lack thereof, herself. Nothing I said allayed that fear until the conversion was complete. The interesting thing now is there is more of a "chlorine" smell coming out of our tap than there is coming from the pool.

Dare I say we've used the pool more since June that we had the last two seasons. I have a 3 year old son and one on the way. There is nothing I would do to hurt them.
 
Usually, if someone uses the TFP method and they have cloudy water, there is a reason. Whether it be they aren't follow the steps correctly, or they have an equipment problem. When followed precisely, the water doesn't cloud, 99% of the time. If you choose not to follow the TFP way, bookmark the site and remember your password, you might change your mind down the road. We'll be here, ready to help! (You pretty much have to commit fully for it to work.)

P.S. Be sure to check how long someone has been a member when reading a thread about a problem. Most have been a member less than a few months.
 
Chris,

Excellent post and much appreciated. Everyone here has been MORE than patient with my rantings and going on and on. So I apologize for at times appearing perhaps a bit cynical and standoffish. Please know I value everyone's input, and many here have taken the time to respond to and encourage me. You pretty well nailed it with regards to the initial apprehensions about the use of "bleach", etc. I think you can really relate to where I am right now. I think that I need to stop doing what I'm doing...which is bouncing back and forth between pool store and TFP advice. The two are pretty diametrically opposed and I think I keep trying to find some sort of balance in the middle. While being apprehensive to cast off one (the pool store's thoughts and products), I am thus also unable to embrace the other (TFP). And by tossing both around in my head and trying to seek justifications for wanting to do one but not the other and so forth, quite frankly I think I will go bonkers if I continue in this manner.

All that being said, I will explore one more thing in some detail: The pool store is telling me that in no way do they recommend using liquid chlorine in a residential pool for the following, which I copied right out of their email: "Liquid chlorine is only 5% active ingredient......It's Sodium....Raises PH and Alkalinity to very high levels. Not a good product to use unless you have a chlorine tank and pump with a muriatic acid pump plumbed in to help control PH."

OK...so I have absolutely no basis upon which to evaluate the accuracy of that statement, nor do I really have any way of determining the accuracy of everyone here stating that liquid chlorine is fine to use. It boils down to a matter of who to trust. What I have gleaned here is leading me to much more trust TFP advice than what I get from the store. Having gone back through my store-done tests over the years, I can see where they had me add TONS of stuff that wasn't really needed..to get me to readings that were not necessary and/or didn't even make sense. So the biggest part of TFP that I have adopted is to do my own testing. Now, I still do use pool store products. I recently came across someone who told me that you wouldn't use pool chemicals to do household baking, so why would you use household products in your pool? There are two sides of this coin that are completely different and so, as has been pointed out from people here AND my pool company, is that now I must make a decision. I won't continue this thread too much further. Enough has been said and suggested. Again, thanks to all. Let me start living with the idea of using "liquid chlorine" and see where it takes me. I increased my oxidizer level significantly today, so we'll see what happens. I have been getting locked in the pattern of simply adding the same amount every week but without really checking to see what level is in the water. That won't work. I discovered that my level was actually quite low over the past few days. So thanks to chem geek for more than once pointing out that the best way to control and prevent the growth of mold is to maintain an adequate oxidizer level. I don't think I've really been doing that. For one thing, I got in the habit of using a test strip that only shows if you have to add oxidizer, and doesn't show what the level is. So if things don't improve and I still an unable to keep water mold under control, then I will be a TFP convert. Promise. But not this season anymore.... :) I think I'll need over the winter to dwell on it all some more and do more research about the actual conversion process, etc.
 
There really isn't a "balance in the middle" because some of what the pool industry says and some pool stores say is either just plain wrong or is not the least expensive or most effective approach.

Their E-mail just tells you how deceitful or ignorant they are (it's hard to distinguish between the two) if their reason for not using chlorinating liquid or bleach is that it is only a lower concentration of product. Think about it for just a moment. The reason it is less concentrated is that it is mostly water. So you carry more weight, but it costs far less per pound so on a per FC basis which is all that matters it is not more expensive than other chlorine sources such as Trichlor or Cal-Hypo especially when adding in the pH adjustment chemicals needed for Trichlor. My pool store sells 12.5% chlorinating liquid which is what I use in my pool. Regular unscented bleach (these days it's usually 8.25%) is the same as chlorinating liquid except less concentrated. You can use either one. See this post for links to sources that tell you why the "household" products are in fact suitable for use in pools because they either say so (such as Clorox Bleach that EXPLICITLY says it may be used in swimming pools and has "% Available Chlorine" on the label) or because they are chemically identical such as Arm & Hammer Baking Soda compared to pool store Alkalinity Up products.

As for sodium hypochlorite raising pH and TA to very high levels, here again they are telling you a half-truth. The pH and TA rise when you add hypochlorite sources of chlorine (e.g. chlorinating liquid or bleach, Cal-Hypo, lithium hypochlorite), but the pH and TA fall back down again when the chlorine is used/consumed so overall it is close to pH neutral. The pH rises in many pools because of carbon dioxide outgassing because pools are over-carbonated, but that can be minimized through having a lower TA level if necessary.

As for trust, we not only have over 90,000 members, but get nearly half a million visitors to this site every month during peak swim season and the reason the site has grown so much is not only because it is friendly, but because it is based on actual science based primarily on peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals plus validation against thousands of real swimming pools.
 
Chlorine is chlorine, the difference between liquid and granulated or solid forms is what it brings with it. All solid forms add either calcium which when it builds up causes problems, or CYA (stabilized chlorine) which when it builds up will cause over stabilization of the pool. Some pool store refer to it a "chlorine lock". The only remedy is to drain water as neither calcium or CYA ever evaporate. Liquid forms of chlorine, regardless if the are labeled "liquid shock", "bleach" or "liquid chlorine" are (except for concentration) all exactly the same chemically. The only thing they add to your water (other than chlorine) is a bit of salt. So, yes that is sodium chloride, you know it as salt. It doesn't cause a change in the pH, or alter the balance of your pool. So no, you don't need gallons of acid.

As far as using household chemicals in a pool, they are the same chemicals. The difference is mostly profit margins. You can buy pool salt or water softener salt. No difference between the two except the price. I personally don't use bleach, but that's only because I have a SWG that manufactures my chlorine from salt.

When you get tired of the expense and the merry-go-round of all the conflicting information and magic potions that the pool stores try to sell you, we will be here.

To understand what and how a properly maintained Trouble Free Pool means, you have to read and study the information in Pool School. It is based on clear scientific principals, and with just a bit of reading it all makes sense. Your choice, you can listen to the "expert" at your local pool store, who has a vested interest in selling a lot of very expensive magic potions, or you can educate yourself and learn the chemistry behind making a pool that's crystal clear, safe, easy to maintain. Your choice.
 
three4rd said:
No way would I consider even partial draining. Pool was just drained last summer and fresh fill added following re plastering. I think I need a break from all of this for awhile. Store tells me one thing and TFP something different. I have found quite a few posts here that report cloudy water even using your methods. I'm sure I'll probably wind up doing it your way but will not even consider draining.
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Hi three4rd, over the years you have invested a lot in your baquacil system and developed an understandable loyalty towards the people at your pool store. We can see that making the decision to convert is causing you a lot of anguish, however I don't see how letting this drag on over the winter is going to help.

Why not just make the decision to convert now and make the conversion as easy as possible by draining the pool and starting over from fresh. This could all be over in a week and you could stop worrying about your pool and start enjoying it....wouldn't that be wonderful !!!!

As far as the bleach goes why not invest about $1,000 in an SWG and your involvement with bleach will be reduced to a minimum. Once you've got the pool chemistry in balance and your SWG dialed in your pool maintenance will consist of once per week testing and the occasional addition of mutriatic acid.

Hey, and in the very unlikely event TFP doesn't work out for you, it would be pretty easy for you to go back to baquacil.
 

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