Here’s the pic of the fluidmaster valve and the outlet in the pool from the autofill. I couldn’t get a good picture of the outlet inside the autofill well, but it is literally just a hole in the side of the well that leads to that output in the pool.
Leaky Autofill
- Thread starter Oriluv
- Start date
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
OK, so this is a bit unorthodox, but based on what @Toxophilite has pointed out, here's another way to go. And unless Toxo can find a flaw, this is probably what I would do if it were my pool, and my well threads are beyond repair (save tearing up the deck). He points out that you won't be able to run water into the well full blast. My 90° diverter solution won't help. That's my bad. It'll quickly overflow the well, no matter how it's pointed.
You won't be able to run the fill rate much higher than what the toilet valve was putting out, which isn't much. You won't be able to top off a missing 1" of evaporation in 20 or 30 minutes, and then just be able to leave the sprinkler valve closed the rest of the day. It might need to be on a lot of the time, at a greatly reduced flow, which I think negates your plan of minimizing the leak by minimizing how many minutes that sprinkler valve is open. The flow might need to be so low, in fact, that either the sprinkler valve won't be able to dial down that low, or its solenoid won't work reliably (I'm not sure about all that, but Toxo points out that it's a possibility).
I'm still not clear on exactly where the leak is, but based on the above issues, I'd be tempted to go another way. If it would plug the leak, I would epoxy the bottom half of the toilet valve into the well, permanently (not PVC glue for this). End-o-leak issue. If the toilet valve ever failed, you'd be able to unscrew the top half, and replace all but the bottom half. That's why I asked about how it comes apart, and about the brand. Fluidmaster has been around forever, and very likely will be. A future replacement being available, that would fit to the "permanent" bottom half, is almost a guarantee. Or you could replace your current Fluidmaster with a new one, and buy a few more identical models and have your future replacement parts in stock and 100% guaranteed that way. That might be about 60 bucks (three new toilet valves). The bottom half failing would be next to impossible, except maybe its o-ring, which you could replace easily (from your stock of parts!). Unless you snapped it off somehow, that bottom half should last forever.
This solution has the potential to both fix the leak and restore a true auto-fill system (again, depending on where the leak is). You won't have to mess with a timer, or the wiring or programming, etc. You might have to drain the well, but maybe not the pool. If you plug the return and turn off the supply valve, you might be able to dry out the well. If not, there are underwater epoxies available. Like I said, unorthodox, but since your well is already "broken," and leaking, you're not gambling much.
Now that will leave the original issue of the incorrect valve back at the pad, but that issue has always been there. You can leave that alone and it'll work as well as it did, or you could replace that existing valve with the proper pressure vacuum breaker valve, that's up to you. Its anti-siphon capability might last forever, or it might have already failed (you can't know, because those types of valves can't be tested). But it'll work as a shutoff valve regardless. If you want to someday upgrade that to the proper valve, we can cross that bridge then.
@Toxophilite, what did I forget this time!?!
You won't be able to run the fill rate much higher than what the toilet valve was putting out, which isn't much. You won't be able to top off a missing 1" of evaporation in 20 or 30 minutes, and then just be able to leave the sprinkler valve closed the rest of the day. It might need to be on a lot of the time, at a greatly reduced flow, which I think negates your plan of minimizing the leak by minimizing how many minutes that sprinkler valve is open. The flow might need to be so low, in fact, that either the sprinkler valve won't be able to dial down that low, or its solenoid won't work reliably (I'm not sure about all that, but Toxo points out that it's a possibility).
I'm still not clear on exactly where the leak is, but based on the above issues, I'd be tempted to go another way. If it would plug the leak, I would epoxy the bottom half of the toilet valve into the well, permanently (not PVC glue for this). End-o-leak issue. If the toilet valve ever failed, you'd be able to unscrew the top half, and replace all but the bottom half. That's why I asked about how it comes apart, and about the brand. Fluidmaster has been around forever, and very likely will be. A future replacement being available, that would fit to the "permanent" bottom half, is almost a guarantee. Or you could replace your current Fluidmaster with a new one, and buy a few more identical models and have your future replacement parts in stock and 100% guaranteed that way. That might be about 60 bucks (three new toilet valves). The bottom half failing would be next to impossible, except maybe its o-ring, which you could replace easily (from your stock of parts!). Unless you snapped it off somehow, that bottom half should last forever.
This solution has the potential to both fix the leak and restore a true auto-fill system (again, depending on where the leak is). You won't have to mess with a timer, or the wiring or programming, etc. You might have to drain the well, but maybe not the pool. If you plug the return and turn off the supply valve, you might be able to dry out the well. If not, there are underwater epoxies available. Like I said, unorthodox, but since your well is already "broken," and leaking, you're not gambling much.
Now that will leave the original issue of the incorrect valve back at the pad, but that issue has always been there. You can leave that alone and it'll work as well as it did, or you could replace that existing valve with the proper pressure vacuum breaker valve, that's up to you. Its anti-siphon capability might last forever, or it might have already failed (you can't know, because those types of valves can't be tested). But it'll work as a shutoff valve regardless. If you want to someday upgrade that to the proper valve, we can cross that bridge then.
@Toxophilite, what did I forget this time!?!
Last edited:
This sounds promising. 
couple of questions, what brand/type of epoxy are you thinking would work best? When you say plug the return, obviously this would be the ‘hole’ in the pool, how could I plug this? Once I do that, I can simply drain the well and go to work?
The leak is on that female threaded inlet in the well where the male threaded fluidmaster screws in. I patched the cracks with water weld but it now feels like it is leaking from within, like from the female threads. This all being said, the more I think about things, I had a problem with algae and dirt covering the walls of the pool beginning this past winter. No matter what I did I couldn’t control it. I marked it up to the ‘cheap’ filters I had to purchase due to all the supply chain issues. Flash forward to when I figured out the old fluidmaster was continuously filling and flooding the pool (about a month 1/2 a go). I spoke to a local pool guy that said the algae growth could be from a leak which is now making me feel like the autofill has been leaking for longer then I think and that maybe I didn’t cause the leak. Maybe the current anti siphon is bad?
couple of questions, what brand/type of epoxy are you thinking would work best? When you say plug the return, obviously this would be the ‘hole’ in the pool, how could I plug this? Once I do that, I can simply drain the well and go to work? The leak is on that female threaded inlet in the well where the male threaded fluidmaster screws in. I patched the cracks with water weld but it now feels like it is leaking from within, like from the female threads. This all being said, the more I think about things, I had a problem with algae and dirt covering the walls of the pool beginning this past winter. No matter what I did I couldn’t control it. I marked it up to the ‘cheap’ filters I had to purchase due to all the supply chain issues. Flash forward to when I figured out the old fluidmaster was continuously filling and flooding the pool (about a month 1/2 a go). I spoke to a local pool guy that said the algae growth could be from a leak which is now making me feel like the autofill has been leaking for longer then I think and that maybe I didn’t cause the leak. Maybe the current anti siphon is bad?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
When you say "Maybe the current anti siphon is bad?" are you referring to the anti-siphon component of the toilet valve, or the component of the brass valve back on the pad? Either way, that wouldn't contribute to algae in the pool. I'm not sure how any leak would. A leak implies water leaving the pool, not ground water coming in. I suppose water could get in from outside the pool, but I don't think that's likely. The pressure of the water in the pool, above the leak's elevation, would force water out. Let me know if I'm incorrectly interpreting what you're describing. Beside, if your auto-fill has been running, that confirms water is leaving the pool. The water the auto-fill was adding would have been city water, free of algae, unaffected by the presence of any anti-siphon component, even one that is defective. So that is not the source of your algae issue. Not sure what your pool guy was getting at. If he is anything like my now-fired pool guy, they just make stuff up to explain things they know nothing about. (Like me!!)
There are plenty of reasons algae can be a chronic problem, and we can discuss that when you're ready to tackle it.
I'm not sure what the best epoxy is for this. Not even 100% sure it would be an epoxy. I just know PVC glue is not the right stuff, so don't use that. Do you have a local West Marine store? You'd want something marine, something a boater would use below the water line, in salt water. A glue that will stick to PVC and whatever the toilet valve is made from. The marine industry will have the right stuff for that. You could even test that. Assuming the well is PVC (do you know?), you can test your glue with the old toilet valve part and a PVC fitting. Don't try to match the threads, you won't be able to. Just see if the glue you want to try will glue a chunk of PVC to the toilet valve bottom. You'll be able to tell if it makes a strong connection or not. Then you'll have the confidence to use it on the well.
Depending on what the return is, it may unscrew out of a socket. Those are typically 1.5" PVC threads and you can use a PVC or ABS plug in the socket with some teflon tape. Like this:
If you can't make that work, or don't want to mess with trying to unscrew the return fitting, you can cork it up with one of these:
You have to get the right size, or buy a few, or an assortment, and use the one that fits best. One of those two solutions will plug up the return. Need I caution you not to over tighten? (Sorry, couldn't resist!
) Then you can wet-vac or sponge out the well until it's dry. You'll be able to make good use of that extra mystery valve back at the pad: shut off both valves to the auto-fill supply pipe and hopefully one or both will shut that pipe down completely.
Again, if this was my pool, I'd toss the old toilet valve, and buy a new one, or rather three or four new ones, so that you have a fresh start and all the backups you'll ever need. By the way, they're not actually toilet valves, as a toilet valve won't work for this application, so don't just grab one of those off the shelf at Lowes. They make a special type for pool auto-fillers. I cannot now recall what the difference is, I just know they're not the same thing you put in a toilet. I shouldn't have been calling it that, but it made for an easy reference. So step one is to see if the existing one has a part number, then track down its replacement. Be sure what you buy is meant for a pool auto-filler, and that you're not inadvertently replacing an actual toilet valve that the previous owner mistakenly used.
I can't think of a reason all of this won't work, but I was already wrong before, so we're hoping others will review this crazy idea to see if they can site a flaw.
There are plenty of reasons algae can be a chronic problem, and we can discuss that when you're ready to tackle it.
I'm not sure what the best epoxy is for this. Not even 100% sure it would be an epoxy. I just know PVC glue is not the right stuff, so don't use that. Do you have a local West Marine store? You'd want something marine, something a boater would use below the water line, in salt water. A glue that will stick to PVC and whatever the toilet valve is made from. The marine industry will have the right stuff for that. You could even test that. Assuming the well is PVC (do you know?), you can test your glue with the old toilet valve part and a PVC fitting. Don't try to match the threads, you won't be able to. Just see if the glue you want to try will glue a chunk of PVC to the toilet valve bottom. You'll be able to tell if it makes a strong connection or not. Then you'll have the confidence to use it on the well.
Depending on what the return is, it may unscrew out of a socket. Those are typically 1.5" PVC threads and you can use a PVC or ABS plug in the socket with some teflon tape. Like this:
If you can't make that work, or don't want to mess with trying to unscrew the return fitting, you can cork it up with one of these:
You have to get the right size, or buy a few, or an assortment, and use the one that fits best. One of those two solutions will plug up the return. Need I caution you not to over tighten? (Sorry, couldn't resist!
) Then you can wet-vac or sponge out the well until it's dry. You'll be able to make good use of that extra mystery valve back at the pad: shut off both valves to the auto-fill supply pipe and hopefully one or both will shut that pipe down completely.Again, if this was my pool, I'd toss the old toilet valve, and buy a new one, or rather three or four new ones, so that you have a fresh start and all the backups you'll ever need. By the way, they're not actually toilet valves, as a toilet valve won't work for this application, so don't just grab one of those off the shelf at Lowes. They make a special type for pool auto-fillers. I cannot now recall what the difference is, I just know they're not the same thing you put in a toilet. I shouldn't have been calling it that, but it made for an easy reference. So step one is to see if the existing one has a part number, then track down its replacement. Be sure what you buy is meant for a pool auto-filler, and that you're not inadvertently replacing an actual toilet valve that the previous owner mistakenly used.
I can't think of a reason all of this won't work, but I was already wrong before, so we're hoping others will review this crazy idea to see if they can site a flaw.
Ha! don't over tighten!! great advice, where were you a few weeks ago
a lot of good stuff here, so now you have me wondering, I did go to Home Depot and grab a fluid master 'toilet' valve and not anything specific to a pool autofill. maybe that is why the thing is leaking? I still have the old valve, so I might put that back in and see if it solves the problem, if it does I will try and find the exact replacement.
If I go the epoxy route, I might just use the JB water weld that I used on the outer portion of the inlet. it is holding up pretty well. I will keep you posted.
a lot of good stuff here, so now you have me wondering, I did go to Home Depot and grab a fluid master 'toilet' valve and not anything specific to a pool autofill. maybe that is why the thing is leaking? I still have the old valve, so I might put that back in and see if it solves the problem, if it does I will try and find the exact replacement.
If I go the epoxy route, I might just use the JB water weld that I used on the outer portion of the inlet. it is holding up pretty well. I will keep you posted.
Toxophilite
Silver Supporter
Nope! I think you are spot on! Making the current can and float assembly work somehow seems best solution in the end. Seems there has to be a good enough epoxy and application available to fix the current crack.@Toxophilite, what did I forget this time!?!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I should clarify. It's possible an off-the-shelf toilet valve will work (I shouldn't have said it wouldn't). I wouldn't actually know from experience. I replaced mine once and bought it direct from the company that makes my auto-fill. They're the ones that told me not to use a toilet valve, because thier unit requires this pool-specific version. Maybe they just wanted to sell me theirs? Who knows. I was just passing on what they taught me. I recall it was about $25, so it wasn't out of line with what Lowes sells a toilet valve for.
I doubt using the wrong type would cause a leak, either in the threads or by how it fills or by how it shuts itself off. I think the way the water enters the well from the valve is different. Perhaps there are other differences, too. Can you get a replacement part number from the manufacturer of your auto-fill system? That's what I would recommend (and what I did when I needed a new one).
I found the part numbers and went ahead and ordered it from Leslie's, should arrive next week. I am thinking the JB water weld should work as the epoxy, so I am going to try that out. I assume, put epoxy on the threads of the fluid master, screw the fluid master in like usual, wait for it to set up, then turn the water back on? The nice thing about the water weld is it works underwater, so I won't have to drain the autofill well.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Sounds simple enough. I've never used "JB water weld" so I can't advise on that.
Once you get the new part, if you can offer any observations about how it differs from the toilet valve you tried, or even the previous one, I'd love to hear them. As I said, I got my info from my auto-fill manufacturer, not Fluid Master.
Best of luck with the repair!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Hey, I'm calling in @proavia for his advice. He might have some ideas to offer before you try my idea. Hold off on the gluing for now.
- Feb 6, 2015
- 7,812
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
I don't know what autofill canister the OP has. Mine is the A&A Quik Water Leveler.
Google - a&a autofill - and look for the YouTube videos. Maybe that will help guide you thru a possible repair.
Additionally, mine has a plastic washer - with a small hole in it - in the molded in bottom fitting. The washer is removable. If it's missing, one can be fabricated. The hole in it is probably less than 1/16" in diameter.
Originally, mine had the "Korky" style fill valve. After it went back, I replaced it with the standard Fluid Master branded fill valve. Haven't had any issues with the Fluid Master (hope that doesn't jinx me now ).
Google - a&a autofill - and look for the YouTube videos. Maybe that will help guide you thru a possible repair.
Additionally, mine has a plastic washer - with a small hole in it - in the molded in bottom fitting. The washer is removable. If it's missing, one can be fabricated. The hole in it is probably less than 1/16" in diameter.
Originally, mine had the "Korky" style fill valve. After it went back, I replaced it with the standard Fluid Master branded fill valve. Haven't had any issues with the Fluid Master (hope that doesn't jinx me now
).@proavia thank you, I have a letro autofill: Letro Products Automatic Filler Parts - INYOPools.com
I didn’t see a washer but I did notice a debris screen which wasn’t on the fluidmaster valve that went bad. I ordered a replacement along with a fluidmaster from pentair.
I will do some research and see if it supposed to have some sort of washer as well.
I didn’t see a washer but I did notice a debris screen which wasn’t on the fluidmaster valve that went bad. I ordered a replacement along with a fluidmaster from pentair.
I will do some research and see if it supposed to have some sort of washer as well.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
It's tough to advise when I don't have a first-hand view of everything, but even if there was supposed to be a washer, my instinct would be to leave it out. Whatever glue/sealant you use should do the job a washer would, and a washer might actually get in the way of a good seal between the well and the Fluid Master. I'm not suggesting you don't research it, the more info the better. But if I'm picturing the problem correctly, you want glue or some sort of marine caulk to both glue and seal the Fluid Master to the well, and also squeeze out into the leaking crack(s). You'll have to use your best judgement if you find there is supposed to be a washer.
The trick will be to use the right amount of glue/sealant. Enough to seal everything up, including any cracks, but not so much that you inadvertently close up the pipe and stop the water flow.
The trick will be to use the right amount of glue/sealant. Enough to seal everything up, including any cracks, but not so much that you inadvertently close up the pipe and stop the water flow.
Toxophilite
Silver Supporter
Agree with @Dirk and leave the washer out of the mix and save on time finding one and dealing with it in the mix. It's just a restriction washer to limit short cycling, which water can be limited at spigot if needed anyway. Mine's been missing since inception, and I long ago I quit worrying about finding a replacement.
I finally got everything. The pentair fluidmaster valve looks exactly like what I had previously gotten at Home Depot. Both are a fluidmaster model 400. Unless I am missing something, I think they are the same. The price however is not, $38 for the pentair version, $8 for the HD version. I think I am going to return the pentair fluidmaster. I also received the washer\debris filter. I might go ahead and give it a try to see if it may solve my current leak. If not, I’ll proceed with epoxy of the fluidmaster threads.
Stay tuned…
Stay tuned…
- Dec 13, 2020
- 905
- Pool Size
- 19600
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
We should devote one of the monthly contests to the most outrageous markups that pool suppliers charge with respect to hardware stores. Pretty often it takes my breath away.
I got the Home Depot fluidmaster installed with the new washer/debris screen. I don’t feel any leaks? Could it have been the washer not being there? Do any of you know an easy way I can check for a leak in the autofill well?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Plug up the return, as I described earlier. Turn off the supply valve. Read this article about the bucket test. You'll have to simulate a miniature version of that to account for evaporation. Then watch it for a while. You'll have to top off the pool with a hose while you run the test. The more days the better. The "bucket" (perhaps a plastic cup somehow attached to the side of the well) will monitor evaporation. If the water in the well and the cup maintain the same level, even if they both drop some, then your well is sound (the loss is just evaporation affecting both the well and the cup). But if the well's water level drops lower than the cup's, you've got a leak.
Third paragraph:
www.troublefreepool.com
Third paragraph:
Leak Detection
A number of things can cause leaks in your pool. You can learn tricks for leak detection and how to pinpoint where your pool is losing water.
www.troublefreepool.com
- May 3, 2014
- 62,674
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,639
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Probably not, but without the "bucket" for comparison, how would he know if any water loss was evaporation vs a small leak in his auto-fill well? A cup of water suspended in the well will rule out the possibility of evaporation, whether it's occurring or not.
That was my train of thought, anyway. A train, I'll admit, that has always had a bit of trouble staying on its tracks!