Lackluster waterfall force after pool renovation

[zbull]

Hello TPF community! First time poster here, be gentle

I have an IG gunite pool with an elevated spa that waterfalls into the main pool. There are also two additional aesthetic waterfall features on either side of the main spa spillway. Since I have owned the home (10 years) the pressure is pretty bad when all three waterfalls are turned on. With the side waterfalls off, the main spa waterfall would push with good force, until recently.

This past Fall I had the pool renovated and had a tanning ledge installed in the shallow end. The shallow end return was extended about 10 feet to the middle of the tanning ledge to make a bubbler. All new fittings seem to be the same size as before, although the drain covers are different.

Ever since the pool was redone, the main spa waterfall is much less forceful. I’m wondering if adding the additional feet to the ledge return/bubbler has added head and is making the return to the waterfalls worse than usual. I have tried to cap off the ledge return/bubbler but that didn't make a difference. Filter has been cleaned.

I will be replacing my concrete pool deck with pavers and considering taking advantage of the excavation to replace two 1.5” skimmer suction lines and two 1.5” return lines (one of which is the ledge return/bubbler) with 2” pipe. Also, plan to replace the old skimmer boxes.

I have poked around the forum and read some about reducing dynamic pool head, but don't have a firm understanding. I estimate about 240' of suction/return piping. Any thoughts on whether increasing the lines to 2” would help with the waterfall force?

I have attached pics to give a better idea of the setup.

Thanks for any advice!

22k gallon, gunite/mini-pebble, WhisperFlo Pump 1.5hp, FNS 60 DE Filter, heater, spa w/ waterfall, Zodiac salt chorinator, iAquaLink

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!
Please fill out your signature as the information in that will help the members answer your question.
I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

 

[zbull]

Thanks. I had filled out signature info but put it in my bio instead of the signature. Oops. Fixed.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Z,

The number one reason for spillover waterfalls to slow down, it a dirty filter. I see you have cleaned the filter, but the theory still applies. Something in the water's path is now more restrictive to flow than before your renovation.

What is your filter pressure? Is this more than before the upgrade?

It appears your return valve is set at an angle.. This allows some water to go to the spa, when in the pool mode. Has someone moved this valve to allow less water to go to the spa?

Is the salt cell dirty (scaled)? Is the tab feeder plugged or off? Why do you even have a tab feeder if you have a SWCG?

One thing you can try is to put your multiport valve in the recirculate (by-pass) position and see if taking the filter out of the equation makes the spillover work. If it does, I would inspect the condition of the DE grids.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[zbull]

Thanks for the reply, Jimrahbe.

Filter pressure is about the same as before the renovation: about 20 PSI

Yes, the return valve is splitting it off between the pool and spa. Isn't that correct? How else would the spa get the return water to spill over?

Salt cell is clear - no scaling built up.

Tab feeder is old, pre-salt system. It's turned off and doesn't receive any water in the column.

I just tried to turn it into recirculate, but water was coming out of the waste line, which surely doesn't seem right. So that test didn't she much light. Perhaps there is something wrong with the multi-port?

But, even before the renovation the waterfall would be wimpy when the side waterfalls are turned on. Any idea what would cause that? Just not enough flow?

Do you think it would be worth it to change the 1.5" lines to 2" while I have the pool deck torn up and do you think it would make a difference?

Thank you!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Yes, the return valve is splitting it off between the pool and spa. Isn't that correct? How else would the spa get the return water to spill over?

Yes... I was asking if someone moved the settings on the valve.. The more water going to the pool means less for the spa.. You can adjust that valve to allow more or less water into you spa. The more water going into the spa, the more the spillover will be..

In theory, you really don't want to run the spillover all the time. People without automation can't be expected to run out and adjust the valve each day, so they adjust their manual valves to allow some water to run to the spa all the time.. People with automation do not need to do that.. They have the option of having three modes of operation.. Pool mode, Spa mode, and Spillover mode. They work like this..

Pool mode.. Water is sucked from the pool through the Intake valve, into the pump, then pushed through the filter, heater, SWCG, through the Return Valve and back to the Pool. (No spillover)

Spa mode.. Water is sucked from the Spa through the Intake valve, into the pump, then pushed through the filter, heater, SWCG, through the Return Valve and back to the Spa. (No spillover)

Spillover mode.. Water is sucked from the pool through the Intake valve, into the pump, then pushed through the filter, heater, SWCG, through the Return Valve and back to the Spa. (Massive spillover)

The whole purpose of the spillover is not to provide you with a fancy waterfall, but rather to keep the spa chlorinated..

You can schedule your automation to run the spillover mode to run for an hour or so per day (or more) at whatever time you want.

Do you think it would be worth it to change the 1.5" lines to 2" while I have the pool deck torn up and do you think it would make a difference?

I doubt it will make much difference, but I am not a expert in this area.. I would add a waterfall pump to power the two separate waterfalls.


Thanks,

Jim R.

I just tried to turn it into recirculate, but water was coming out of the waste line, which surely doesn't seem right.

If you were actually in the recirculate mode, the MVP has to be bad.. Waste goes to the waste line, but recirculate should just by-pass the filter.

 

[zbull]

Ah ok. Thanks for the explanation! I went ahead and manually adjusted the return JVA2440 valve. I moved it very little and it is now pushing more water over the spillway, but now the bubbler on the shelf is pretty sad looking. Is there any way to increase flow rate/pressure and have both the spa spillway and pool returns moving more water? Or is this just a limitation of the system and the 1.5hp pump? Or maybe I need to get a waterfall pump like you suggested, but it could also be used to return to the bubbler?

In theory, you really don't want to run the spillover all the time.

Is this because you'd want to have the pool turns circulating the pool more than it would when the spillover is running?

Would still like to get opinions on whether I should go ahead and change 1.5" pipe to 2" of some lines when the patio is torn up. It may not improve things, but I surely don't want it to make anything worse!

Thanks for your time Jimrahbe

 

[Jimrahbe]

Z,

Is this because you'd want to have the pool turns circulating the pool more than it would when the spillover is running?

Not really.. Watefalls cause your pH to increase and are often noisy.. If that does not bother you, then there is no reason to change anything. We do not put much stock in the idea that you must turn over your water x times a day.. It is just not true.. Chemicals keep your water clear, not the number of times the water passes through the filter. The filter is there to capture what falls into your pool..

Would still like to get opinions on whether I should go ahead and change 1.5" pipe to 2" of some lines when the patio is torn up. It may not improve things, but I surely don't want it to make anything worse!

I am not a flow dynamics expert, but logic says that water will follow the path of least resistance. So making the spa pipe 2" and leaving the bubbler as 1.5" might help, but I believe that making them both 2" will result in the same situation you have now.

Do you have an actual bubbler or just an eyeball pointed up? If you make the bubbler output smaller, it should have more force and at the same time cause more water to go to the spa...

In my mind you do not have enough flow to run everything at once..

How many pool returns do you have? Another option would be to make all your pool returns smaller, which would also force more water into the spa.

The problem here is that if it worked before, why is it not working now??

Let's see if we can get some of our flow experts to chime in..

Thank,

Jim R.

 

[zbull]

So making the spa pipe 2" and leaving the bubbler as 1.5" might help, but I believe that making them both 2" will result in the same situation you have now.

I would think that the reduced friction due to the larger pipe would allow more water to flow. Reduced dynamic head pressure. Maybe?

Do you have an actual bubbler or just an eyeball pointed up? If you make the bubbler output smaller, it should have more force and at the same time cause more water to go to the spa...

It's just a regular return eyeball pointed up. I rigged it with a smaller opening, but it didn't make the water come out with more force. So it seems like the force just isn't enough.

How many pool returns do you have? Another option would be to make all your pool returns smaller, which would also force more water into the spa.

There are two returns in the pool, one being the bubbler. Plus the Polaris cleaner, if that counts. There are 8 in the spa.

The problem here is that if it worked before, why is it not working now??

Well, the situation changed. I added the tanning ledge and extended the return from the wall to the middle of the ledge to create a bubbler. So the return pressure in the pool wasn't an issue. But now that I want the waterfall and bubbler to have enough force, it is more obvious. I wonder if perhaps my system could or should have a larger pump. Currently it's a 1.5HP WhisperFlo.

 

[mknauss]

FYI --- your pump is powered by a 2.25 THP motor. Is that the original motor?

 

[zbull]

No, it's not the original. It's a 1.5HP, but I guess that THP is an uprated HP?

 

[mknauss]

Correct. Did you install that motor? Trying to determine if the impeller is matched to that motor.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I would think that the reduced friction due to the larger pipe would allow more water to flow. Reduced dynamic head pressure. Maybe?

Z,

I doubt the friction has anything to do with it.. It is much harder to pump water up hill than back to the pool.. If you make both pipes two inches, then it will still be easier for the water to flow back into the pool than it is to go up and into your spa. That is why I said restricting the flow back to the pool would allow more water to go to the spa..

An easy fix is to install a 3 HP VS pump.. It should make everything work at the same time, but not sure how noisy it would be..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[zbull]

Did you install that motor?

I had a pool company replace the pump, but this is probably the 3rd pump in 10 years. The pump is a WhisperFlo 1.5HP WFE-6

An easy fix is to install a 3 HP VS pump

Sounds like an expensive fix But from what I have read, I would be limited by the pipe size where 1.5" pipe only allows about 44GPM max, regardless of the pump HP. So in theory, larger piping would allow more GPM, even with a 1.5HP pump.

Thanks!