Just got my bid need HELP!

This is what worries me about the first step from coping to the 6” water deep step. Maybe 10” or so total drop. This sounds pretty good to you? I may be over thinking it but just not sure.

OK, good that your are thinking this through (you're not overthinking, IMO, this is the time to check on things like this). My only comment would have been about that first drop.

By code, steps are required to be virtually the exact same height from each other. They must be the same depth, too. I can't now remember the allowable tolerances, but it takes very little to trip a person up, less than an inch. So at first, those 6" increments sounded good. But you're right, that top step is going to be quite a bit farther down than the others. If those were steps to a second floor, people would trip on that top step.

It is different in a pool, not as critical I suppose, so I don't know that there is a building code that governs that issue. But the principal is something to consider. See what your PB has to say about it... In a perfect world, each step would have the same tread and riser, but that might not be practical for a set of pool steps, especially one with an integrated shelf, that, I presume, must be at a certain depth...
 
Speaking of steps... I always thought it would be a smart idea to install a removable hand rail while building a pool. One that you can slip relatively easily in and out of sleeves set in the deck (not in the steps). The sleeves would have caps or inserts of some sort, to hide them while the rail was removed. Then just pack the rail away for a day when someone visits that can make use of it (grammy and gramps), or when you someday might need a little help yourself. Not the easiest thing to add a hand rail later, especially because of the electrical bonding it requires.

Here's a discussion about it:

Rail. Yay or nay

I'd use something like this style, so that there were no sleeves underwater (algae garages).

rail.jpg
 
OK, good that your are thinking this through (you're not overthinking, IMO, this is the time to check on things like this). My only comment would have been about that first drop.

So at first, those 6" increments sounded good. But you're right, that top step is going to be quite a bit farther down than the others.

Isn’t everyone’s first step the deepest since you come off the coping and into the water. Otherwise to maintain 6” off the coping the first step would only be 2-3” underwater which would be tough to light, clean and keep clean. Then the measurements from there would be odd water depth (3, 9, 15, 21, 27, 33, etc.) making it hard to get subs to get it right.

Plus the ledge depth is 9 or 12” deep and the consensus on these ledges seems to be most used and enjoyed between 10-12”.
 
So what your saying is don’t put an underwater sleeve in for an umbrella on the sun deck...

I've never had an umbrella sleeve, so I can't speak from experience, just a sort of logic. It's a hole, number one, that will collect dirt and possibly algae. Many people have them, and PBs keep installing them, so there must be a good way to take care of them, but not for me. They're also a penetration through the plaster that has a long pole (fulcrum) sticking out of it with a large wind sail at its end! It's the plaster that makes a pool waterproof, not the gunite underneath, so how does a pole in a hole though the plaster, which is constantly being forced back and forth by the wind, not eventually fail? Again, these must work, or they'd stop installing them, but it just looks like too much potential trouble to me. All this would apply to a lesser extent to a hole for a stair rail. I don't know, ask around about it. Maybe start a thread here and see if umbrella sleeve owners are having any problems or not. They must have to close them after each use, or maybe take them out of the pool when it's windy? I would have to where I live.

For me, I need some shade over the water. I solved that with a shade sail. No pole to walk around. Nothing in the pool. No cantilevered monster chunk of concrete counter-weight sitting on the deck. 100% wind proof. And for my yard, it obscures my view of the sky and surrounding area way less than an umbrella would. I never have to think about it or put it up or take it down, etc.

So... because shade and hand rails are available that don't require a penetration underwater, that'd be the way I'd go.

Oh, and for the sun deck? Have you ever had much success hiding from the sun under an umbrella? One that is in a fixed location? Even if you could fit your body under it, you'd only get good coverage for an hour or so a day! How are you and your significant other supposed to get comfortable under an umbrella, together? More umbrellas? I see people have them, I just don't get how they would work all that well. But then again, I'm not a fan of the sun shelf to begin with, so you'll need to gather opinions from others that have both, umbrellas and shelves...


Isn’t everyone’s first step the deepest since you come off the coping and into the water. Otherwise to maintain 6” off the coping the first step would only be 2-3” underwater which would be tough to light, clean and keep clean. Then the measurements from there would be odd water depth (3, 9, 15, 21, 27, 33, etc.) making it hard to get subs to get it right.

Plus the ledge depth is 9 or 12” deep and the consensus on these ledges seems to be most used and enjoyed between 10-12”.

I think very few pool steps adhere to the dimensions I described, if any. I think they end up being a compromise because of the reasons you point out. I don't think tripping on steps in a pool is a big issue. People seem to manage them just fine, regardless of their various heights relative to each other and the deck. That's why the steps usually include some sort of contrasting marker, so people can see them and navigate them. We don't expect pool steps to be even, like we do other stairways, so we take better care on them and watch where we're going. I was just pointing it out as something to consider, so that maybe you could minimize the height differences as much as possible. I don't think you're going to end up with a perfect solution, but I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal, either.
 
WAIT! I did not catch that part about it being so far from coping............nope that is too far. It will be hard to get into and out of the pool. Do some mocking up with books or such to get a good feel for it and go from there.

Kim:kim:
 
WAIT! I did not catch that part about it being so far from coping............nope that is too far. It will be hard to get into and out of the pool. Do some mocking up with books or such to get a good feel for it and go from there.

Kim:kim:

Ok so let’s talk this through because this is why I’m so confused. Coping is about an inch and waterline tile is 6” generally water level should be in the middle of the waterline tile so normal coping to water is a 4” drop then the 6” of water to the first step is 10” from coping then it would be 6” increments from there. Maybe a hand rail solves the first 10” step in and 10” step out.

Otherwise if we did the first step at the bottom of the waterline tile there would only be 3” of water above it. That shallow of water would cause some issues cleaning that step, stagnate water and it would eliminate the ability to have the light over the step giving us a dark step at night. Also if we carry this scenario out 3” step, 9” ledge (seems like 10-12” is the sweet spot), 15” bench (seems like 18” is the ideal bench), 21” step, 27” step, 33” step, and we are not all out of wack.

Are your top steps directly below your waterline tile and in 3” or less water? Do they descend at 6” a step?

I appreciate the back and forth because I’m just not settled on this situation.
 
I'll try to go measure all my steps tomorrow... I know I've never thought about this, so whatever my steps are, they're not uncomfortable. I don't have the shelf issue, though. My second step continues on as a bench, but that'd be too deep for a shelf. You've got me curious about my own pool now. Numbers tomorrow...
 
I have an above ground pool so any thing I know is from others pools. I see what you are saying about the trouble with the step being so high on the shelf.

I just went back and looked at your design. These are a step in each corner. I say you are fine. If it were a series of steps then it would be important to have them all equal.

If you want to play with it a little then build something to represent the coping at the height it will be from the shelf. Then see how different heights feel when stepping up and down. A handrail on one of them would be helpful down the road if you have any hip/knee/ankle problems or if any other people need it that might visit.

Kim:kim:
 
My pool is covered for the winter so not going out to measure, but I have three steps into my pool, and pretty sure all are equal in riser height and step depth.
Yes, the top step only hold 2-3 inches of water and does require more manual cleaning
 

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I'll try to go measure all my steps tomorrow... I know I've never thought about this, so whatever my steps are, they're not uncomfortable. I don't have the shelf issue, though. My second step continues on as a bench, but that'd be too deep for a shelf. You've got me curious about my own pool now. Numbers tomorrow...

Thanks Dirk nothing beats real world numbers. I’m curious to know what your numbers are from coping to step and waterline to step. At each one.

- - - Updated - - -

I have an above ground pool so any thing I know is from others pools. I see what you are saying about the trouble with the step being so high on the shelf.

I just went back and looked at your design. These are a step in each corner. I say you are fine. If it were a series of steps then it would be important to have them all equal.

If you want to play with it a little then build something to represent the coping at the height it will be from the shelf. Then see how different heights feel when stepping up and down. A handrail on one of them would be helpful down the road if you have any hip/knee/ankle problems or if any other people need it that might visit.

Kim:kim:

So we changed that design to have a step all the way across and added 1 ft to the ledge no triangles in the corners anymore. Felt those corner steps would be awkward.

Kim what do your steps measure out from the coping to the step and from waterline to the step?

- - - Updated - - -

Here is an option for rails and ladders that do not require bonding
Innovative Pool Products Pool Rails | Swimming Pool Handrails | Rail for In Ground Pools

Blazer do you know what I would need to install during the build to be able to insert and remove one of these rails when needed?
 
Thanks Dirk nothing beats real world numbers. I’m curious to know what your numbers are from coping to step and waterline to step. At each one.

Well, now I know why I've never noticed this before. My steps are equidistant, in both height and depth. Maybe to within as little as 1/2":

From the water, they go:

6"
17"
28"
39"*

From the coping, they go:

11"
22"
33"
44"*

*The last step was a bit hard to measure, because of the way the last step and the side of the pool curve into the bottom, so that was a bit of a guess. And I didn't actually measure the treads (tops of steps). I just eye-balled that. but they are not radically different. The top step is a bit wider, which makes sense. If it matched the other two, it'd be too small to land on as you're getting in.

But you can see that from the coping the steps are built with optimum dimensions for "trip-prevention." Now an 11" rise is a tad much. Most people would find that uncomfortable if those were steps outside of water. I'm sure as I get older they'll become an increasing challenge.

My bench forms off that second step, so it's 17" below the water. Keep in mind my water level varies from day to day, maybe by an inch or so. So those dimensions are variable. I don't find that my top step gets any dirtier than the others. I do have a return close to my steps, but I doubt it blows much on the top step. My vac doesn't really do any of the steps (sometimes it kind'a lurches at the bottom step, but doesn't accomplish much).

Another thing to contemplate, your shelf depth does not necessarily have to match the depth of one of your steps. Ideally it should, but you can decide which is more important: riser heights or matching the shelf.

You can see, by the way I had the marker tiles done, you're not going to miss where my steps are!

steps 2.jpg
 
Okay I measured my step. Remember I have an above ground pool so it might not be apples to apples but I guess it could be as a step is a step no matter what kind of pool.

My top step is 2.5" under the water. My water is right where I like to keep it, just above the middle of the skimmer face. The top step is 7" from the coping. I was quite surprised as I had not really thought about it before. I do know it is easy to get into and out of my pool. I don't really use the rail nor does my husband. We have wedding cake steps.

Kim:kim:
 
Amazing input Dirk, Kim, and Blazer. Thanks.

It sounds like we will be in good shape going with the water depth of 6”, 12”, 18”, 24”, 30”, 36” setup on steps and benches.

To make it even more accommodating we might consider a 3” build up in one corner/side of the 9’ wide first step by where the temporary handrail could be installed when needed.

Here is what I’m thinking about...

23E33B35-4D06-4ECF-AF20-1AEDE0C36E04.jpg

Please let me know what y’all think about this set up.
 
YES!!! I SO want to put a lock on this design! I think you found the best of all worlds! Saying that I would make sure to use tile markers on all the edges of the benches and steps.

What waterline tile are you thinking of?

Kim:kim:
 
YES!!! I SO want to put a lock on this design! I think you found the best of all worlds! Saying that I would make sure to use tile markers on all the edges of the benches and steps.

What waterline tile are you thinking of?

Kim:kim:

Good deal. Thanks Kim.

We are going to have 1” black ceramic edge marker tile on all steps and benches.

The waterline tile is something we are struggling with but we are thinking maybe white. Let me tell you our progression through this.

First we were going to do black to match my lap line and step/bench edge tile but after the concept of maintenance on the black waterline that went away quick. Then we thought about a patterned tile but the only one we found that was affordable and that we actually liked the pool builder doesn’t carry or have access to through their suppliers. So they would install but not be able to go to bat on the tile if it failed so that’s probably out to, plus you worry about it being to busy and being trendy and tired after a year or 2.

145D2981-4DA2-423D-9FB3-6F0393F6116A.jpg

Back to the drawing board... We looked at mass amounts of pool pictures and it seemed we were drawn to the ones with the white waterline. Seem closest to that caribbean beach/water we love.

So the short answer not 100% sure but we have time.
 
That is one of the issues with the patterned one that we don’t care for. You can’t tell in the picture but it is not white it is like an off white, cream color. Plus that would put is back into warranty issues which is not the end of the world but worth considering. So if we did go with that patterned it would probably be all or nothing.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Elida-Cera...in-x-6-in-Actual-5-87-in-x-5-87-in/1000372717

That’s the link for that other tile. It does not say that it’s frost resistant in the specs which is also troublesome.

We do like the tie in with the black and it is what we picked that originally. Has anyone used the Classic Gris, NVVS 660, Noble Tile Supply? That’s another one we have considered.
 

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