Is TFP also trouble free swimmer?

[RTeen]

The triazines melamine and atrazine are nephrotoxic and are endocrine disrupters (ED). Unfortunately CYA has not been studied to the same extent mostly because it’s acute toxicity is lower, but we know virtually nothing on its endocrine effects on amphibian or fish models, much less on human ED.

So in your opinion we should be more worried about CYA rather than chlorine levels?

 

[randytsuch]

The same article says both 4ppm and 50ppm chloramine levels are safe. Which one is it?

So basically it is ok to keep maximum 4ppm FC in the water if there is no CYA.

"These studies reported no observed health effects from drinking water with chloramine levels of less than 50 milligrams per liter (mg/L) in drinking water."

So I would consider up to 50 ppm safe. 4ppm is the recommended upper level for drinking water.

And remember this is for drinking water. Unless you go fill up water glasses from your pool, you can keep your pool at higher levels than this.

I don't consider an accidental mouthful of water every now and then to be the same as drinking water.

Randy

 

[Toxophilite]

So basically it is ok to keep maximum 4ppm FC in the water if there is no CYA.

If you are a public pool with on site techs monitoring FC constantly, maybe. If you test once daily, and your consumption is 2 to 2.5ppm loss, more with a lot of swimmers, you are better sanitized with LC for the day with 40ppm CYA and not falling below 3pmm, preferably not below the 4ppm. The key to sanitation and preventing algae is with maintaining proper residual and effectiveness of your FC.

 

[gingrbredman]

It is very obvious that your high priests haven’t considered the effects of kids gulping pool water under TFP

I think you are right on there, not a lot of discussion of kids gulping pool water around here. As many have said, this site is about TFP protocols, not common sense advice, like, ya know, not gulping pool water.

To throw out a term like "high priests" is in poor taste, and doesn't belong on this site. I'll try to say it again, this is not the site for someone who is interested in debating the TFP methods, and then referring to those who embrace them as some kind of cult member. It is a shift in thinking when you get here, that this is in very unlike other forums out there that embrace other ways to go about it, that is just not what TFP is about. I see it a lot, people who regularly go on other forums assume this is just like the rest. A free an open conversation about other ways to go about it, but again, that is not this place. There are forums for that, redit, Facebook, etc., and if someone wants to throw insults around about how their way is better, that's the place for them.

And we will be discussing what happens under such a protocol as it is richer in chlorine content compared to other protocols.

Which other protocols are we talking about? Like, real protocols for pool chemistry?

If you have nothing to contribute please refrain from posting and hijacking my thread. I don’t need preaching.

I am not sure anyone was preaching, but again, this comment is not the normal reaction we see from the members here. I think because other's opinions are not what you are expecting, you may consider them to be preaching, but this kind of response is what I would expect on a auto forum for example, not TFP.

 

[RTeen]

Found in a quick google search:
CDC page on chlorine levels in drinking water

Up to 4ppm is considered safe for drinking water:
"Chlorine levels up to 4 milligrams per liter (mg/L or 4 parts per million (ppm)) are considered safe in drinking waterexternal icon. At this level, harmful health effects are unlikely to occur."

"Studies indicate that using or drinking water with small amounts of chloramine does not cause harmful health effects and provides protection against waterborne disease outbreaks. These studies reported no observed health effects from drinking water with chloramine levels of less than 50 milligrams per liter (mg/L) in drinking water. A normal level for drinking water disinfection can range from 1.0 to 4.0 mg/L."

So thanks for getting me to look it up. I now feel very safe with my target level of 7 ppm. I tend to trust the CDC, I have no doubt they have more expertise on this then most.

Randy

Yes if 4ppm is safe for drinking we can probably easily handle a double dose for temporary digestion.

Then it makes more sense to focus on CYA aspect.

 

[Toxophilite]

Yes if 4ppm is safe for drinking we can probably easily handle a double dose for temporary digestion.

Then it makes more sense to focus on CYA aspect.

From the industry, I've seen anywhere from 20-100pmm CYA, to less, more reasonable, numbers. TFP is no where near out of line with such, and if you read much around here, you will see it is more about a more sane CYA management protocol.

 

[RTeen]

From the industry, I've seen anywhere from 20-100pmm CYA, to less, more reasonable, numbers. TFP is no where near out of line with such, and if you read much around here, you will see it is more about a more sane CYA management protocol.

Please give a credible reference to CYA safety at the indicated range.

Thank you.

 

[cledee]

Excuse me but you took all my words out of context and making a useless argument to defend TFP. When I referred to internet I wasn’t referring to any alternative protocol. I was merely stating the fact that chlorine poisoning exists no matter how much you bang the table. So it is safer to assume that it can also happen under TFP and learn about it further. Accidents happen. Kids unintentionally swallow water. If you consider everything under ideal scenario nothing will go bad and everything will be pink skies. So again it makes sense to question how bad it can get if a kid swallows pool water under TFP. Is it going to be any better or worse compared to alternative protocols?

Just remember that anything in high enough quantities can be damaging to your body. You can drink too much water, you can have too much protein, too many vitamins, ect.

Chlorine poison does exist, but typically it occurs with people who don't know what they are doing, how to test their water, what each chem they add does to the water, ect. Before TFP, I would have assumed that smelling chlorine in your pool was a good thing, when in fact it's the complete opposite.

I would rather drink from a TFP pool than a pool that is not properly chlorinated that's for sure, where bacteria and viruses and other pathogens can survive. Not that you would want to drink pool water, but some are claiming kids take big gulps which is probably between 1-4oz of water. CYA is more concerning because the more you have, the less effective chlorine is, and the more chlorine your pool requires.

 

[Toxophilite]

Please give a credible reference to CYA safety at the indicated range.

Thank you.

Our largest national chain of pool stores will still show that range on their test sheets of your pool water. It's still out there on many protocols. No, there is nothing "credible" out there for running near 100ppm. If you read a lot of different industry blogs and articles, you can see where the tide is in starting to realize what knowledgeable chemists and pool care experts have touted here for long before, that there's a closer relationship to FC and CYA that is a better, more scientific, approach.

 

[Steve-D]

If you check the internet you will see a lot of chlorine poisoning events, especially kids happening. Probably most of that is related to gaseous chlorine inhalation at indoor pools.

I did a google search for the phrase "chlorine poisoning from pool child." In one case a child opened a box of chlorine tabs out of curiosity and inhaled.
In 2 others there was either a system failure or accidental release of excessive chlorine, for example:

Reports from staff and authorities indicate that “a large amount of chlorine had been accidentally introduced into one of the pools in a very concentrated and quick manner, thus exposing those in the water to an abnormally high chlorine concentration,” according to the fire department.

Only one example I read went unexplained but testing of the water showed chlorine levels as "normal" and in that case the situation was still described as exposure to excessive amounts of chlorine. The cases I found all indicated levels of chorine well above anything recommended under the TFP method.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that more research wouldn't be welcome, just that the pool chemical levels advocated by TFP are considered safe given the available research assuming that common sense (don't fill your water bottles from the pool) and general pool safety practices are followed.

 

[dfwnoob]

OP appears to be asking for some sort of study on the health effects of ingesting water containing CYA at the TFP levels.

I did find: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474314/pdf/envhper00440-0275.pdf

Which states:

Cyanuric acid is practically nontoxic when administered as a single oral or dermal dose. The oral LD50 in rats is greater than 10,000 mg/kg[...].

That is an enormous amount given how little of it you're dissolving into a 20k+ gallon pool. There's no way you'd be able to drink that much pool water purposely, let alone accidentally. A 45 lbs child would need to eat nearly half a pound of CYA to hit the LD50. There are no studies I am aware of, or could find, regarding long term, repeated exposures to oral administration of CYA, however, given how relatively nontoxic it seems to be, I'd be more worried about other things in life like skin cancer from the sun.

 

[RTeen]

I did a google search for the phrase "chlorine poisoning from pool child." In one case a child opened a box of chlorine tabs out of curiosity and inhaled.
In 2 others there was either a system failure or accidental release of excessive chlorine, for example:

Only one example I read went unexplained but testing of the water showed chlorine levels as "normal" and in that case the situation was still described as exposure to excessive amounts of chlorine. The cases I found all indicated levels of chorine well above anything recommended under the TFP method.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that more research wouldn't be welcome, just that the pool chemical levels advocated by TFP are considered safe given the available research assuming that common sense (don't fill your water bottles from the pool) and general pool safety practices are followed.

Look we are not only discussing acute toxicity here, but also discussing long term allergic and carcinogenic effects. If you get sick from pathogens one week course of Ceftriaxone and Metronidazole would get pretty much anyone up. Cancer and acute toxicity is more of a coin flip. Basically I am trying to assess what I am getting myself into and recovery from such events. This is called risk management. No one is advocating to drink pool water. But in the case of such an event I would like to know where I stand between getting a treatable diarrhea and cancer.

 

[Steve-D]

Look we are not only discussing acute toxicity here, but also discussing long term allergic and carcinogenic effects. If you get sick from pathogens one week course of Ceftriaxone and Metronidazole would get pretty much anyone up. Cancer and acute toxicity is more of a coin flip. Basically I am trying to assess what I am getting myself into and recovery from such events. This is called risk management. No one is advocating to drink pool water. But in the case of such an event I would like to know where I stand between getting a treatable diarrhea and cancer.

My reply was not meant to come across as hostile or defensive. I was just pointing out what others have noted earlier in this discussion...that chlorine poisoning headlines don't tell the whole story.

Your original post might well have been rewritten to say "TFP maintains that its practices and protocols are safe and that they are based on science. Where can I find the relevant studies that support your claims?" That is a perfectly reasonable question given that the internet is rife with misinformation. From what I have read here many of those answers have been offered although some of the studies in question may be somewhat dated.

Risk management can be an inherently personal calculation. Hopefully you will find the answers you are looking for to your satisfaction.

 

[RTeen]

My reply was not meant to come across as hostile or defensive. I was just pointing out what others have noted earlier in this discussion...that chlorine poisoning headlines don't tell the whole story.

Your original post might well have been rewritten to say "TFP maintains that its practices and protocols are safe and that they are based on science. Where can I find the relevant studies that support your claims?" That is a perfectly reasonable question given that the internet is rife with misinformation. From what I have read here many of those answers have been offered although some of the studies in question may be somewhat dated.

Risk management can be an inherently personal calculation. Hopefully you will find the answers you are looking for to your satisfaction.

In general attitude in the forum is hostile when challenged but it is not specific to this forum. What you call science is not exactly science. They are years of practitioner experience, which is also extremely valuable. Science requires control groups. Say 100 pools with TFP protocol vs say 1-3ppm protocol on a long term basis where users are blind to the protocol applied and monitoring the health of the users. Here it is more like “my grandkids are still alive” or “chemgeek said this”. I am not saying TFP is bad or wrong. Just trying to understand how the protocol corresponds to available science for health rather than how shiny the pool is. If anyone wants to apply TFP without asking these questions they are more than welcome. I simply refuse to do so.

 

[duraleigh]

No one is advocating to drink pool water. But in the case of such an event I would like to know where I stand between getting a treatable diarrhea and cancer.

A loud, harmless belch is a possibility, too

 

[RTeen]

A loud, harmless belch is a possibility, too

Obviously nothing may happen as well. But as an admin I rather see you maintain your neutrality at this point. I understand it is difficult to expect such from people when everyone is polarized in one way or another. This kind of behavior is very common in forums where all the rounders pat each other in the back when a newcomer comes. It is good for feeding egos but very detrimental to the blossom of new ideas. Ok I accept the earth is flat, and TFP is the holy grail.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Rteen, I have to question your point here? You can do anything you want to your pool. Those of us that follow the TFP methods feel quite safe knowing our pools are free of "cooties" as I call them.
Please, lets limit the arguments for arguments sake to a minimum.

On another note- How's your pool looking? What do pools in Turkey look like?

 

[RTeen]

Rteen, I have to question your point here? You can do anything you want to your pool. Those of us that follow the TFP methods feel quite safe knowing our pools are free of "cooties" as I call them.
Please, lets limit the arguments for arguments sake to a minimum.

On another note- How's your pool looking? What do pools in Turkey look like?

My pool looks very well at the moment. Don’t really know what will happen in the long run. Most pools here are overflow pools. It is very rare to see skimmer systems.

 

[Toxophilite]

My pool looks very well at the moment. Don’t really know what will happen in the long run. Most pools here are overflow pools. It is very rare to see skimmer systems.

Would love to see some pics of pool and layout. Is there issue for long run of maintaining it? Maintenance product shortages there too?

 

[mgtfp]

How about you read the article I linked above. I think it answers many of your questions.