Is TFP also trouble free swimmer?

[RTeen]

This site is full of useful information keeping a pool trouble free based on expertise of many people. A lot of effort has been put into the science of disinfection and keeping the pool crystal clear.

This is all great. I cannot seem to find however much regarding the long term effects of chlorine usage on health. Considering that TFP procedure loads more chlorine to a pool and buffers the HOCl levels with CYA, is there some study regarding the long term allergic and carcinogenic effects of chlorine and TFP procedure that you can point?

Thanks

 

[mgtfp]

The main health issues come from disinfection byproducts i.e. combined chlorine (CC), especially Nitrogen Trichloride. CCs build up when chlorine breaks down substances introduced from bathers like sweat, urine, etc. These are actually a bigger problem in not sufficiently chlorinated pools, when there is not enough chlorine present to finish the breakpoint chlorination process (but still start it).

Here is a good post from chem geek on the topic (all his posts in this thread are worth reading):

BBB and chlorine health

Two things. 1. How do you determine "actual PPM" for a given FC/CYA ratio? I tested my tap water last night and it had about 2-3 PPM, which seems really high. According to the county water test report, this is supposed to be around 1 PPM. Either way, how do I get the equivalent number for my...

www.troublefreepool.com

And here is a post explaining the different steps in the oxidization from ammonia (as an example for a substance that creates CC when attacked by chlorine) over Monochloramine, Dichloramine to Nitrogen Trichloride and finally Nitrogen gas as the end-product of the breakpoint chlorination:

Chloramines and FC/CYA

This post will describe the effects of using Cyanuric Acid (CYA) to lower active chlorine concentration in terms of breakpoint chlorination and the net resulting chloramine production. The basic breakpoint reaction was described by Griffin (1939), but the first reasonable detailed model was...

www.troublefreepool.com

In backyard outdoor pools, Nitrogen Trichloride is usually not a big issue because of the low bather load (that's the "backyard" bit) and because UV (that's the "outdoor" bit) helps with the oxidization of CC.

 

[RTeen]

The main health issues come from disinfection byproducts i.e. combined chlorine (CC), especially Nitrogen Trichloride. These build up when chlorine breaks down substances introduced from bathers like sweat, urine, etc. These are actually more critical in not sufficiently chlorinated pools, when there is not enough chlorine present to finish the breakpoint chlorination process.

Here is a good post from chem geek on the topic:

BBB and chlorine health

Two things. 1. How do you determine "actual PPM" for a given FC/CYA ratio? I tested my tap water last night and it had about 2-3 PPM, which seems really high. According to the county water test report, this is supposed to be around 1 PPM. Either way, how do I get the equivalent number for my...

www.troublefreepool.com

Although he seems to have considered the dermal absorption I don’t see any discussions regarding the water swallowing, which happens a lot with kids. The argument is focusing on the fact that chlorine that is not bound to CYA is very low compared to tap water. However once swallowed the entire mixture is in the body. At that point we don’t actually know how much of that bound chlorine actually becomes unbound in the digestive system and absorbed by the body. That amount can be excessively high compared to the tap water.

 

[mgtfp]

That article might be worth reading, but only the abstract is free:

A Review of Toxicology Studies on Cyanurate and Its Chlorinated Derivatives

Edit: You can read 100 articles per month for free on that site when registering

Abstract:
Chlorinated cyanurates are added to swimming pools as disinfectants. In the presence of water, these materials hydrolyze to yield cyanurate and hypochlorous acid. To evaluate the safety of exposure to these materials, a comprehensive testing program was undertaken. This review summarizes the results of acute and subchronic tests on chlorinated isocyanurates. Findings from acute, subchronic, reproduction, metabolism, mutagenicity, and chronic/carcinogenicity tests on cyanurate are also summarized. Results from these tests indicate that chlorinated isocyanurates are safe for use in swimming pools.

 

[mgtfp]

However once swallowed the entire mixture is in the body. At that point we don’t actually know how much of that bound chlorine actually becomes unbound in the digestive system and absorbed by the body. That amount can be excessively high compared to the tap water.

Even when ingested, the same chemical equilibrium equations still apply to these chlorinated cyanurates that were responsible for their formation in the pool in the presence of a certain chlorine concentration in the first place. When ingested, the bound chlorine will not suddenly get released, it still has to follow the the same equilibrium equations in an aqueous solution.

One of the statements in above article by Hammond et al. is "In a series of metabolism studies, cyanurate has been shown to be readily eliminated from the body unchanged". Doesn't sound like the digestive system is messing too much with it.


In the final conclusion:

"Exposure to high levels of chlorinated isocyanurates may cause tissue irritation because of their ability to release hypochlorite. Although hypochlorite can oxidize and damage tissues at high concentrations, it was not found to be carcinogenic when administered in drinking water to F334 rats and B6C3F1 mice. Mice were administered 500 to 1000 ppm sodium hypochlorite for 78 weeks, and rats 500 to 2000 ppm for 104 weeks.
The hydrolysis product of chlorinated isocyanurates exhibited very little toxicity in the tests that have been conducted."

 

[Toxophilite]

Although he seems to have considered the dermal absorption I don’t see any discussions regarding the water swallowing, which happens a lot with kids. The argument is focusing on the fact that chlorine that is not bound to CYA is very low compared to tap water. However once swallowed the entire mixture is in the body. At that point we don’t actually know how much of that bound chlorine actually becomes unbound in the digestive system and absorbed by the body. That amount can be excessively high compared to the tap water.

Even if we assumed a level of out of bounds on recommended heath regulations of municipal drinking water, a mouthful here and there, if that really even happens, compared to how many gallons a day someone drinks and bathes from the tap over a lifetime, the tiny amounts ingested would be off scale by a large enough factor, negating any comparison be made. But, with using the methods here, we can keep a lot of other chemicals out of our pools, like heavy metals in algaecides, and chemicals not even listed on many pool remedies and conditioners, as well as pathogens.

 

[RTeen]

Even if we assumed a level of out of bounds on recommended heath regulations of municipal drinking water, a mouthful here and there, if that really even happens, compared to how many gallons a day someone drinks and bathes from the tap over a lifetime, the tiny amounts ingested would be off scale by a large enough factor, negating any comparison be made. But, with using the methods here, we can keep a lot of other chemicals out of our pools, like heavy metals in algaecides, and chemicals not even listed on many pool remedies and conditioners, as well as pathogens.

I don’t see this as a good argument. Many poisonous molecules become toxic when consumed in large amounts in a short time. You can consume cyanide at small quantities and you will just urinate it out. Take a little more and then you will surely meet your creator.

 

[Toxophilite]

I don’t see this as a good argument. Many poisonous molecules become toxic when consumed in large amounts in a short time. You can consume cyanide at small quantities and you will just urinate it out. Take a little more and then you will surely meet your creator.

My argument was that pool water is not consumed, or should not be, in any large quantity. I have grandkids that swim almost daily here, and they do not drink the water without me even telling them not. Adults should know better and need not be told. Yes, they get tiny amounts in their mouth. They spit it out at times. That does not negate my concern for healthy water, drinking it is just not a factor of concern, especially at near drinking water level sanitation.

 

[RTeen]

Even when ingested, the same chemical equilibrium equations still apply to these chlorinated cyanurates that were responsible for their formation in the pool in the presence of a certain chlorine concentration in the first place. When ingested, the bound chlorine will not suddenly get released, it still has to follow the the same equilibrium equations in an aqueous solution.

One of the statements in above article by Hammond et al. is "In a series of metabolism studies, cyanurate has been shown to be readily eliminated from the body unchanged". Doesn't sound like the digestive system is messing too much with it.


In the final conclusion:

"Exposure to high levels of chlorinated isocyanurates may cause tissue irritation because of their ability to release hypochlorite. Although hypochlorite can oxidize and damage tissues at high concentrations, it was not found to be carcinogenic when administered in drinking water to F334 rats and B6C3F1 mice. Mice were administered 500 to 1000 ppm sodium hypochlorite for 78 weeks, and rats 500 to 2000 ppm for 104 weeks.
The hydrolysis product of chlorinated isocyanurates exhibited very little toxicity in the tests that have been conducted."

Although the article is quite old it is a starting point. I need to investigate further.

Chemical equilibrium holds unless body absorbs the free chlorine then more will be released and more of it will be absorbed. I really have zero knowledge about the absorption rates or what the end result will be for a human. Also we don’t know the contribution of our own enzymes to that equilibrium.

As I said it is a good start but not a nail in the coffin.

 

[RTeen]

My argument was that pool water is not consumed, or should not be, in any large quantity. I have grandkids that swim almost daily here, and they do not drink the water without me even telling them not. Adults should know better and need not be told. Yes, they get tiny amounts in their mouth. They spit it out at times. That does not negate my concern for healthy water, drinking it is just not a factor of concern, especially at near drinking water level sanitation.

If you check the internet you will see a lot of chlorine poisoning events, especially kids happening. Probably most of that is related to gaseous chlorine inhalation at indoor pools. I am glad that nothing happened to your grandkids. But I will not operate on “look nothing happens”. I observed many times kids gulped fair quantities of pool water when they surface from a dive trying to get air.

 

[Toxophilite]

If you check the internet you will see a lot of chlorine poisoning events, especially kids happening. Probably most of that is related to gaseous chlorine inhalation at indoor pools. I am glad that nothing happened to your grandkids. But I will not operate on “look nothing happens”. I observed many times kids gulped fair quantities of pool water when they surface from a dive trying to get air.

When we enter a pool, we are already entering a compromised environment. Think about a body of water that is also holding the contamination of many other folks' bodies in the same pool of water. Human bodies carry a lot of nasties on them. There's a big difference between getting some water in the mouth and drinking/ingesting water in quantity. The latter would be the issue of concern more than the condition of the water in my book. I do assume the worst, so no one drinks water is the rule that really needs not enforced.

 

[Eauclaire]

The triazines melamine and atrazine are nephrotoxic and are endocrine disrupters (ED). Unfortunately CYA has not been studied to the same extent mostly because it’s acute toxicity is lower, but we know virtually nothing on its endocrine effects on amphibian or fish models, much less on human ED.

 

[gingrbredman]

Considering that TFP procedure loads more chlorine to a pool and buffers the HOCl levels with CYA, is there some study regarding the long term allergic and carcinogenic effects of chlorine and TFP procedure that you can point?

I guess I am having a hard time following the content of this post as it relates to "Testing and Balancing Water" (where this post was first posted). Does the TFP method load "more" chlorine into a pool? I guess what I am thinking is this is more of a "deep end" discussion and not anything to do with the TFP method of testing and balancing water. A different discussion on overall chlorine studies, and long term drinking large amounts of chlorinated water really does not have anything to do with the TFP method of testing and balancing water true to the TFP methods. Just my take as I look through the forum this morning.

If you check the internet

If you check the Internet, they are wrong on how you manage pool chemistry, at least according to the protocols of the TFP methods, so I would not try and corollate any studies between the TFP methods and other ones.

 

[RTeen]

I guess I am having a hard time following the content of this post as it relates to "Testing and Balancing Water" (where this post was first posted). Does the TFP method load "more" chlorine into a pool? I guess what I am thinking is this is more of a "deep end" discussion and not anything to do with the TFP method of testing and balancing water. A different discussion on overall chlorine studies, and long term drinking large amounts of chlorinated water really does not have anything to do with the TFP method of testing and balancing water true to the TFP methods. Just my take as I look through the forum this morning.


If you check the Internet, they are wrong on how you manage pool chemistry, at least according to the protocols of the TFP methods, so I would not try and corollate any studies between the TFP methods and other ones.

Excuse me but you took all my words out of context and making a useless argument to defend TFP. When I referred to internet I wasn’t referring to any alternative protocol. I was merely stating the fact that chlorine poisoning exists no matter how much you bang the table. So it is safer to assume that it can also happen under TFP and learn about it further. Accidents happen. Kids unintentionally swallow water. If you consider everything under ideal scenario nothing will go bad and everything will be pink skies. So again it makes sense to question how bad it can get if a kid swallows pool water under TFP. Is it going to be any better or worse compared to alternative protocols?

 

[Donldson]

If you check the internet you will see a lot of chlorine poisoning events

I cannot help but notice that when something fits your existing opinion, a headline will suffice as proof. Meanwhile when well written threads by actual chemists are presented that does not fit your existing opinion, you are quick to dismiss it because it isn't precisely what you claim to be looking for. This is a common fault in all of us that sometimes needs pointed out.

I'll just point out two things: First, it's really easy to check the internet for verification that what you already think is correct. Second, so-called "chlorine poisoning events" are sensational and get clicks. Rashes, coughs, minor sicknesses caused by pathogens in the water aren't as interesting so do not get the same kind of media attention. Unsanitary pools are far more of a problem, but until it is a brain eating amoeba the media isn't all that interested in such uninteresting headlines.

TFP is about good sanitary water chemistry, it is not a parenting advice site. If kids are regularly drinking large amounts of pool water, that is a problem beyond the scope of this site.

 

[Toxophilite]

I can pull you a couple of news events local to me of kids having died from an ameba that enters the brain from simply playing on splashpads that are common here. In both cases, it was traced to under-sanitzed water that was following "industry" regimens and standards. Sanitation is paramount here at TFP, as well as keeping out unnecessary processed chemicals.

 

[gingrbredman]

Excuse me but you took all my words out of context and making a useless argument to defend TFP.

I am not sure how you took it that way, my point in the first place was that this kind of discussion has nothing to do with testing and balancing water, and really nothing to do with TFP protocols. Full stop.

TFP is about good sanitary water chemistry, it is not a parenting advice site. If kids are regularly drinking large amounts of pool water, that is a problem beyond the scope of this site.

That right there! Intermingling TFP protocols with parenting advice, safety advice, legal advice, isn't good, and surely is still in the wrong section of this forum.

 

[RTeen]

I cannot help but notice that when something fits your existing opinion, a headline will suffice as proof. Meanwhile when well written threads by actual chemists are presented that does not fit your existing opinion, you are quick to dismiss it because it isn't precisely what you claim to be looking for. This is a common fault in all of us that sometimes needs pointed out.

I'll just point out two things: First, it's really easy to check the internet for verification that what you already think is correct. Second, so-called "chlorine poisoning events" are sensational and get clicks. Rashes, coughs, minor sicknesses caused by pathogens in the water aren't as interesting so do not get the same kind of media attention. Unsanitary pools are far more of a problem, but until it is a brain eating amoeba the media isn't all that interested in such uninteresting headlines.

TFP is about good sanitary water chemistry, it is not a parenting advice site. If kids are regularly drinking large amounts of pool water, that is a problem beyond the scope of this site.

We are actually discussing science with mgtfp and Eauclaire
while others are just throwing irrelevant stuff around (parenting advice, brain eating amoeba, etc) like cult members.

It is very obvious that your high priests haven’t considered the effects of kids gulping pool water under TFP. And we will be discussing what happens under such a protocol as it is richer in chlorine content compared to other protocols.

If you have nothing to contribute please refrain from posting and hijacking my thread. I don’t need preaching.

 

[randytsuch]

Found in a quick google search:
CDC page on chlorine levels in drinking water

Up to 4ppm is considered safe for drinking water:
"Chlorine levels up to 4 milligrams per liter (mg/L or 4 parts per million (ppm)) are considered safe in drinking waterexternal icon. At this level, harmful health effects are unlikely to occur."

"Studies indicate that using or drinking water with small amounts of chloramine does not cause harmful health effects and provides protection against waterborne disease outbreaks. These studies reported no observed health effects from drinking water with chloramine levels of less than 50 milligrams per liter (mg/L) in drinking water. A normal level for drinking water disinfection can range from 1.0 to 4.0 mg/L."

So thanks for getting me to look it up. I now feel very safe with my target level of 7 ppm. I tend to trust the CDC, I have no doubt they have more expertise on this then most.

Randy

 

[RTeen]

Found in a quick google search:
CDC page on chlorine levels in drinking water

Up to 4ppm is considered safe for drinking water:
"Chlorine levels up to 4 milligrams per liter (mg/L or 4 parts per million (ppm)) are considered safe in drinking waterexternal icon. At this level, harmful health effects are unlikely to occur."

"Studies indicate that using or drinking water with small amounts of chloramine does not cause harmful health effects and provides protection against waterborne disease outbreaks. These studies reported no observed health effects from drinking water with chloramine levels of less than 50 milligrams per liter (mg/L) in drinking water. A normal level for drinking water disinfection can range from 1.0 to 4.0 mg/L."

So thanks for getting me to look it up. I now feel very safe with my target level of 7 ppm. I tend to trust the CDC, I have no doubt they have more expertise on this then most.

Randy

The same article says both 4ppm and 50ppm chloramine levels are safe. Which one is it?

So basically it is ok to keep maximum 4ppm FC in the water if there is no CYA.