Thank you for your response. Would you please expand on why the ozone/UV should be commercial grade?
Is 0 CYA OK with liquid chlorinator
- Thread starter AJB1234
- Start date
Thank you for your response. Would you please expand on why the ozone/UV should be commercial grade?
- May 3, 2014
- 58,603
- Pool Size
- 6000
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- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Because the residential units are woefully under powered. If you really want them to work, then you have to get strong systems.
Katodude
Silver Supporter
- Aug 22, 2017
- 2,622
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- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I guess also in theory he could do a SLAM every night. Not sure what SLAM level is for 0 CYA but just go to FC of 10 every night and it will burn off very quickly in the morning. You will spend a fortune of chlorine, but it should help
You could also throw a few pucks in a floater when you go on vacation and just tell the wife whoops, I did not know it would add CYA I just thought it was chlorine. Even with 10ppm of CYA you would be in better shape than 0
You could also throw a few pucks in a floater when you go on vacation and just tell the wife whoops, I did not know it would add CYA I just thought it was chlorine. Even with 10ppm of CYA you would be in better shape than 0
Shirker
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- Jul 2, 2014
- 749
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- 19000
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- Vinyl
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I should have clarified. I was not trying to say that it looked beautiful as in healthy. It is just a stunning pool. It really is beautiful. Lots of glass tile and the water was crystal clear. But I assume that pic was taken right after being filled for the first time. If you find my other posts on this thread you will see that I am absolutely in the pro-CYA camp.
I have a similar set up (liquid chlorine with a Pentair Intellichem system as well as the Pentair UVBioshield system. I too have had the same question as I have NOT added anything like CYA to the pool and thus far have had no issues. The water looks very clean and clear though the chlorine levels do seem low all the time 0.5ppm.
What am I missing??
What am I missing??
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,903
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- 12300
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
And I was just attempting to add that clarification, for the OP, not necessarily for you. If you practice TFPC, it doesn't really matter if you understand that concept or not. Your water is safe. But the OP is looking to modify TFPC and so (I think) we're all trying to help him understand what is involved in attempting that. For example, just tweaking his FC level to clear up that errant bit of algae is not assurance that his pool is properly sanitized. TFPC works hand in hand with the FC/CYA levels to allow not only enough chlorine to sanitize a pool, but also provide an additional amount, in a buffer, to cover un-planned-for attacks on chlorine (from intense sun days or heat or bird fly-over or dead rodents or a peeing guest or whatever). Things that happen to outdoor pools regularly. So yes, he can probably figure out an FC level that will make his pool look good, and even sanitized for periods of time, but not necessarily one that will keep the water safe for his family all the time.
My take away from my studies: No body of water intended for swimming is 100% safe, and I doubt it can be made so. To be graphic, it'd be pretty easy to swim through and/or ingest something harmful if you happen to catch it just right (bird poop, baby pee, whatever), but in a TFP pool those incidents would be very rare because we all have enough chlorine in our water to negate something like that quickly. And likely enough to negate multiple attacks, should they happen at the same time. But the OP wants to run the required amount of chlorine very "close to the edge," virtually teetering on sanitized/unsanitized, so close that he's thinking of supplementing sanitation with ozone and UV and what all else, which don't work all that well on the examples I just listed, not anywhere near as fast anyway. He's likely going to have more "crud" in his water more of the time, and he won't know it's in there just by looking at his water clarity or checking for algae (which is the motivation for chiming in about your comment). Yes, he might have solved his algae problem for that day or week, but he likely won't have enough chlorine in his pool some part of the time to handle all the things that need to be sanitized. He'll need to rely on the nasties finding there way to the ozone chamber or UV chamber (if I'm understanding correctly how they work). That ozone won't be attacking anything out in his pool, not like enough chlorine would. So every time he gets in his pool, his odds are going to be much higher than yours or mine that he's going to run into something undesirable. Whatever as-yet-to-be-clearly-defined reason his wife has for insisting on this risk, is, well, not worth the risk.
I've put my faith in TFP. Are there alternate ways of sanitizing a pool? Yes. Has anyone found a way to do it better than TFP? Not that I know of. Do I have confidence that one person, experimenting with one outdoor pool, is going to find a way to do it properly without CYA? No, none at all.
Sorry AJB, I don't mean to offend you. I think you're chasing the wrong rabbit. IMO, you and your family would be better served by you spending your time proving to your wife that CYA is safe enough, instead of trying to find a solution to something that doesn't need to be solved...
Shirker
0
- Jul 2, 2014
- 749
- Pool Size
- 19000
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- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Logically, if you have a 13,500 gallon pool and run the pump at 30 gpm, you would theoretically pass all of the water through the chamber every 7.5 hours. But I doubt this is the case in practice. You will likely always have some amount of water that is never passing through the chamber and it is constantly contaminating the sanitized water. With a higher chlorine level (made safe by the buffering affects of CYA), even the water is not passed through the chamber is sanitized.
There will almost certainly be nooks and crannies, and maybe something with a nice little biofilm hidey hole that will never see the UV.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,903
- Pool Size
- 12300
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Those notions are important for the OP to consider, for sure, but that wasn't exactly what I was getting at.
I would go several steps past scdaren and suggest that on any given day there would be large amounts of your pool's water that never saw the inside of the sanitizing chamber(s). I believe that's why you pretty much have to also use chlorine when you use these alternate systems. But let's say, for arguments sake, that one could adjust their circulation such that it would guarantee every molecule of water got passed through the sanitizer once a day. Even twice a day. I still wouldn't want to swim in that pool, because what about the pathogens that enter the water just before you do? Or even hours before, that are still "waiting in line" to get into the sanitizer? Without sufficient chlorine, you'd have to wait until all the affected water passed through your filtering system! And there's no way to determine when that will occur, even if you watch the bird poop in the water and know exactly what time the water got infected. But you counter with "Well, that's what the chlorine is for!" And that's fine, unless the minimum amount of chlorine you're trying to keep to has all been consumed that day because it's hot, or you got lazy and didn't test/dose it, or you bought a bum jug from Home Depot, or it's not a little bird poop but a dead rat in the skimmer that you didn't notice and it consumed all your chlorine, because you have none in reserve because you have no CYA!! Is the OP willing to test FC before every swim?
What makes a TFP pool trouble free, at least in part, is that you don't have to be concerned with those notions. Properly chlorinated water is sanitizing everywhere in the pool, 24/7. There are no pathogens "waiting in line," for any significant amount of time.* I believe it only takes seconds? A couple minutes maybe? Not hours of circulation to achieve, anyway. And there's enough chlorine in "CYA storage" to handle many of these unforeseen hits, even more than one at a time. So yes, the OP will certainly be able to sanitize his pool without CYA, but in order to ensure that the pool is sanitary, every time he wants to jump in, will take a level of effort well beyond one that could be considered trouble free.
* There are pathogens that take significantly longer than minutes to be destroyed by chlorine, so like I said earlier, no body of swimming water can be made 100% safe. It comes down to odds. The more chlorine in reserve, the better your odds at not running into nasties. CYA substantially improves the odds.
Thank you for the kind words. When this picture was taken the pool has been full of water for 4-5 months. The water has always been crystal clear... even at night in front of the led lights.
You might have found her concern here. Additionally, she mentioned skin is the largest organ in the body (insert joke here) so just swimming in it could affect the body similarly to ingesting it.
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Well you make a good point but the goal in our household is to limit bad things for us whenever possible. All else being equal, we would choose to swim in a pool that is less likely to cause cancer than the alternative.
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Well you make a good point but the goal in our household is to limit bad things for us whenever possible. All else being equal, we would choose to swim in a pool that is less likely to cause cancer than the alternative.
The wife's response to this is that many people are dying from carcinogens... it causes cancer. Millions have died of cancer. (my comment: obviously not all related to cya in a pool but perhaps contributing?)
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So the wife researched ozone/uv and not the actual products. If we don't have a powerful enough system then that's a discussion we should have with our pool builder who "sold" us on uv/ozone. If you have suggestions of a commercial system that has worked well, kindly let me know. We would be interested in making the change.
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So the wife researched ozone/uv and not the actual products. If we don't have a powerful enough system then that's a discussion we should have with our pool builder who "sold" us on uv/ozone. If you have suggestions of a commercial system that has worked well, kindly let me know. We would be interested in making the change.
Here is another SDS that says CYA is not carcinogenic, on page 7 https://pooloperationmanagement.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CYANURIC-ACID-SDS.pdf
This is all being hashed out ad naseum, your wife is a microbiologist. She therefore probably knows a lot more about pathogens and their life in water than anyone of us commenting here. So I think she is well qualified to assess the risk they impose. Just as they said, it's not TFP. People swim in lakes and rivers and oceans every day and don't get sick that often.
This is all being hashed out ad naseum, your wife is a microbiologist. She therefore probably knows a lot more about pathogens and their life in water than anyone of us commenting here. So I think she is well qualified to assess the risk they impose. Just as they said, it's not TFP. People swim in lakes and rivers and oceans every day and don't get sick that often.
- May 3, 2014
- 58,603
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Good comment and here's a zinger thought of by the wife herself... if the sun's UV reduces the chlorine in the pool, why wouldn't the pool's UV light do this as well? Wouldn't all of the water going through the UV system end up chlorine free? This got her to review the Hayward UV manual and sure enough it states the following:
NOTE: UV light, whether from HydroRite or the sun, will deplete the pool’s chlorine over time. It’s important to maintain the proper level of Cyanuric Acid (Sta- bilizer) to prevent this reaction. Use the recommended level of Cyanuric Acid regardless of whether it is indoors or outdoors.
Hayward Suggested cya is 30-50
So guess what? It's looking like the wife is becoming more ok with trying a minimum cya of 30. I love this forum and will honor my earlier statement that I will become a gold supporter if the wife ends up approving cya.
NOTE: UV light, whether from HydroRite or the sun, will deplete the pool’s chlorine over time. It’s important to maintain the proper level of Cyanuric Acid (Sta- bilizer) to prevent this reaction. Use the recommended level of Cyanuric Acid regardless of whether it is indoors or outdoors.
Hayward Suggested cya is 30-50
So guess what? It's looking like the wife is becoming more ok with trying a minimum cya of 30. I love this forum and will honor my earlier statement that I will become a gold supporter if the wife ends up approving cya.
- May 3, 2014
- 58,603
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Seeing the light. Yes, the UV device does consume chlorine.
The ozone device does not. But to get a real one, you need to spend $6000 or so.
The ozone device does not. But to get a real one, you need to spend $6000 or so.
Well she had a position at one time where she used to test the water in lakes and oceans and I think she would have a comment or two about that! With that being said, we do swim in the ocean and it's all about risk/reward. We don't have control over the harmful items found in the ocean but we do in our private pool. Good comment thanks!
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Oh... one more thing that might be of interest to the TFP forum members is a comment she made about people talking about the FC in our size pool lasting an hour during sun exposure. She says such a claim really cant be made. There are many factors involved with making such a statement such as water temperature as well as the depth of the water examined (as well as other variables she mentioned that I already forgot haha).
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Thanks... we will look into it. May I ask how do you know that it works better?
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Oh... one more thing that might be of interest to the TFP forum members is a comment she made about people talking about the FC in our size pool lasting an hour during sun exposure. She says such a claim really cant be made. There are many factors involved with making such a statement such as water temperature as well as the depth of the water examined (as well as other variables she mentioned that I already forgot haha).
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Thanks... we will look into it. May I ask how do you know that it works better?
- May 3, 2014
- 58,603
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
https://www.troublefreepool.com/~richardfalk/pool/HalfLife.gif
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That is the issue with both UV and Ozone, they cannot be measured. FC can be measured.
The commercial ozone systems generate many times the amount of ozone versus the residential ones. To believe it works, you need to overwhelm the system. Sadly, it is all anecdotal that it works. You cannot measure it.
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That is the issue with both UV and Ozone, they cannot be measured. FC can be measured.
The commercial ozone systems generate many times the amount of ozone versus the residential ones. To believe it works, you need to overwhelm the system. Sadly, it is all anecdotal that it works. You cannot measure it.
Thanks... I will share the chart with her. Knowing her well enough... she probably will find this 'basic' and without scientific merit (again doesnt show all the potential variables). Keep the good stuff coming. BTW- I am now a gold supporter. Thanks all for your great advice and help!
Maybe I'm not understanding this chart... But how can that be right? So if I have 100 ppm CYA, and I put my FC at 10 ppm, then 7 hours later half of it would be gone? That's not right... Maybe 2 or 3 ppm would be gone at most. Or am I missing some of the meaning of the science here?