Interior Finish Disclosure

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grumpiebk

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Jun 22, 2016
906
FL
I received this from our pool builder today. We are getting our quartz-based interior finish applied mid next week. When you read these types of disclosures, a natural reaction is to be concerned about the quality of work you may receive. Are these types of disclosures common practice for PBs?

Also what should I be looking out for with the finish process? Anything I should be watching for as they do the job? Most of the things I've learned here are for after application: ensure they do an acid wash, fill with cloth on hose and float bottle, don't stop filling until completely full, etc.

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Here is the standard link I share at this time. Make sure to run it by your PB as he is the one that holds the warranty card. The 30 day no swim depends on what kind of start up they do.

Pool School - Start-up New Plaster

I do know you need to watch the rain forecast. Do not fill overfill the spa (you do not want water flow at this time).

I have not seen this notice but have heard of them saying it in so many words..............sounds very much like a CYB (another word for the adult word LOL).

Kim:kim:
 
You might want to read these -

Being Blamed for Plaster Discolorations? Don't Get Hoodwinked

Research Reveals Need for Pool Plastering Standards

Scientific Evidence on Plaster Spotting

Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster

Aggressive Water Versus Improper Pool Plastering

Pool School - Start-up New Plaster

You should sit down with your PB or plaster applicator and have a discussion about what product they are using and how they will apply and startup the pool. You should also find out the exact product name and manufacturer (there are only a few major ones) and go to their websites or call them to determine what is the preferred application and start up process.

That disclaimer you received basically says that the PB will not be responsible for plaster color variation. Well, in some of the darker plaster colors there is definitely variation. It can be acceptable amounts or, as we have seen here on TFP, it can be unacceptable amounts. That disclaimer basically says no amount of variation will be considered a defect. If you are required to sign that document, I would not until a discussion has been had. If it is a blanket statement, then again, you want to talk this over with the PB and get as much detail as possible.

Also, they stipulate that they are not responsible for a pool owner not maintaining balanced water. Well, you need to know what they consider balanced water and what proof you would have to furnish to them that is acceptable. I can tell you form the threads here on TFP that YOU, the pool owner, will always be blamed first and that you will have to furnish irrefutable proof that you are not to blame before any warranty actions will be considered.

Let us know what they say...
 
As a pre-requisite, you should have the tap water you plan to use to fill the pool measured for pH, TA, CH, salt, etc. You can take a sample to the pool store for a full analysis or do it yourself if you've ordered a test kit. If your fill water is considered aggressive (typically having both low CH and low TA), then you need to inform the PB and plasterer that the fill water should be supplemented with either baking soda or calcium increaser or both if necessary before the pool is filled. There are techniques for doing this using plastic drums to act as filling reservoirs where solid chemicals can be added and slowly dissolved into the the fill water as the pool is filling.

If you plan to use water trucked in it needs to be certified as balanced. Be aware that sometimes when people claim to be getting "trucked in" water, it turns out to be nothing more than an water truck finding the closet available fire hydrant near your home and filling up prior to showing up to your driveway. In essence then, the "trucked water" is no different than your own fill water except you've been over-charged for it.

Two tips -

1. Call you local fire department and see if they do pool fills for free or for a reduced fee if you make a nice "donation" to their firefighters fund. Many people on TFP have gotten water for their pools that way for far less than what they were quoted by a local water supplier.

2. If you use your own home water, call you water company and ask them what documentation you need to supply for a pool fill. Some water utilities will reduce the sewerage portion of the water bill for a pool fill knowing that the excess water usage was not used to water your lawn ;)
 
Thanks Matt and Kim. That was just a "form" that was delivered at this stage of the build. I did not have to sign it.

The product we are using is Premix Marbletite (Sapphire color) quartz-based aggregate finish. It is a greyish-white base color with black and blue specs. We specifically chose this product because it gets us closest to the darker colors we like without dark dyed plaster like DB or Florida Gem. I have seen this plaster in person from the same PB and it looked consistent in color and evenly applied a year after installation. Obviously that doesnt guarantee that is how ours will get done, but it is what we are hoping for.
 
great suggestions Matt!

My fill water test results are as follows:
Ph - 7.8
TA - 70
CH - 150
FC - 0 - never turned pink
CC - never turned pink

Would your comments on supplements apply here?

Also, for your recommendation of filling per the fire department, would there be any concern with them filling with a high pressure truck hose onto the plaster? I thought this was the reason for the bottle-float technique to ensure water doesnt run heavily onto any given spot on the plaster.

- - - Updated - - -

Kim, in that link it is silent to defining the "break-in" period. Is there a standard for this or is this something I need to ask the PB and follow their advice?
 
Our PB had anecdotal stories of fire trucks accidentally blowing off sections of the finish. Apparently that's the reason it's no longer done in my area. Sounds like a possibility but I'm not 100% sure that it's the truth.

As to the form, it sounds like CYA legalese that the builder, finish installer, and finish manufacturer wants to have on file to keep overly detail oriented customers from asking to have a finish done again due to normal variations in texture and color.
 
grumpiebk said:
great suggestions Matt!

My fill water test results are as follows:
Ph - 7.8
TA - 70
CH - 150
FC - 0 - never turned pink
CC - never turned pink

Would your comments on supplements apply here?

Also, for your recommendation of filling per the fire department, would there be any concern with them filling with a high pressure truck hose onto the plaster? I thought this was the reason for the bottle-float technique to ensure water doesnt run heavily onto any given spot on the plaster.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, the fire department would have to be careful not to hit the plaster with full pressure. However, if you've ever seen the intake and regulation side of the fire truck, I think they have plenty of levers to throw to regulate the pressure and flow down to a reasonable level. As others have suggested, they will probably say no but it never hurts to ask.

Your water is mildly aggressive (CSI ~ -0.1 to -0.2 depending on what the water temperature is). If you read the Bicarb Startup Process that onBalance has developed, you'll see that they have a very simple formula for filling the pool when water is aggressive and that is the sum of the CH and TA should be ~ 500ppm to keep the water from leeching calcium from the pool surface. It also provides enough carbonate anion in the water so that the calcium hydroxide in the plaster can easily convert to calcium carbonate. Depending on how fast you can fill your pool, it may be ok to just fill it up and then adjust the TA and CH so that the CSI value is near zero or very slightly positive. As you fill the pool, calcium is definitely going to dissolve into the water so, even though the incoming CH of the water is 150ppm, I would not be surprised at all if it's well over 200ppm or more once the pool is filled. In that case, then all you might need to do is bump up the TA with a little baking soda and keep the pH tightly controlled to 7.8 while the plaster cures. This is the hardest part of a bicarb or traditional startup process - the pH and TA levels should be monitored DAILY and adjusted as needed because the pH rise is going to be fast & furious. You will go through gallons of acid and boxes of baking soda just trying to keep the pH and TA at proper values.

The startup period for plaster is 28-30 days. During this period NO SALT should be added to the pool water as the chloride ion from salt at high concentrations will interfere with the proper formation of the calcium carbonate in the plaster. Many old-school PBs & plasterers ignore this even though the NPC technical guidelines for pool plaster starts clearly state that salt should not be added in the first 30 days.

You really need to get with your PB on this start up process. Chances are he has his own home-brew process that he uses and he's highly unlikely to modify it at all. You would be best served going into that conversation with a copy of the NPC's startup technical bulletin and good read of all the materials here. If something doesn't sit right with you, get as much info as you can and we can try to help. At the end of the day, if you want to PB to warranty the surface, you have to do as he says even if he's dead wrong on the technical facts.

Good choice on the lighter color. You will avoid a lot of the problems that are seen with grey and darker colored plaster. I'm sure you're plaster will look great once it's done.
 
Also, during the start up period, the heater and salt-water chlorine generator (if you're getting one) should not be installed or they should be bypassed. The filter will likely need daily cleaning as it captures the plaster dust.

Also, it is ok during the startup period to use trichlor pucks in a chemical floater to keep some chlorine in the water. I personally would load up a floater and let it go and then keep the water at 1-2ppm FC using bleach. You DO NOT want to shock the water at all during the break in period. Many PB's will also add algaecide (make sure it's polyquat-60 and NOT a metal-based algaecide or cheap linear quat algaecide) and calcium sequestrant to the pool during start up. The calcium sequestrant is a phosphonate based chemical that chemically binds to calcium ions and tries to keep them in solution so they don't cause scale. There's no harm in using the sequestrant for the break in period but it is typically not needed after the 30 days. Algaecide is also fine to use but is not needed in a long term sense.
 
I think Matt has the "break-in" question and then some others. Great job Matt!

I love the idea of sitting down with your PB and the plaster people.

I would show the PB your test kit and your test results for you fill water. Most PB are NOT used to people who are in the know and have their own test kits.

Kim:kim:
 

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JoyfulNoise said:
Well, yes, the fire department would have to be careful not to hit the plaster with full pressure. However, if you've ever seen the intake and regulation side of the fire truck, I think they have plenty of levers to throw to regulate the pressure and flow down to a reasonable level. As others have suggested, they will probably say no but it never hurts to ask.

Your water is mildly aggressive (CSI ~ -0.1 to -0.2 depending on what the water temperature is). If you read the Bicarb Startup Process that onBalance has developed, you'll see that they have a very simple formula for filling the pool when water is aggressive and that is the sum of the CH and TA should be ~ 500ppm to keep the water from leeching calcium from the pool surface. It also provides enough carbonate anion in the water so that the calcium hydroxide in the plaster can easily convert to calcium carbonate. Depending on how fast you can fill your pool, it may be ok to just fill it up and then adjust the TA and CH so that the CSI value is near zero or very slightly positive. As you fill the pool, calcium is definitely going to dissolve into the water so, even though the incoming CH of the water is 150ppm, I would not be surprised at all if it's well over 200ppm or more once the pool is filled. In that case, then all you might need to do is bump up the TA with a little baking soda and keep the pH tightly controlled to 7.8 while the plaster cures. This is the hardest part of a bicarb or traditional startup process - the pH and TA levels should be monitored DAILY and adjusted as needed because the pH rise is going to be fast & furious. You will go through gallons of acid and boxes of baking soda just trying to keep the pH and TA at proper values.

The startup period for plaster is 28-30 days. During this period NO SALT should be added to the pool water as the chloride ion from salt at high concentrations will interfere with the proper formation of the calcium carbonate in the plaster. Many old-school PBs & plasterers ignore this even though the NPC technical guidelines for pool plaster starts clearly state that salt should not be added in the first 30 days.

You really need to get with your PB on this start up process. Chances are he has his own home-brew process that he uses and he's highly unlikely to modify it at all. You would be best served going into that conversation with a copy of the NPC's startup technical bulletin and good read of all the materials here. If something doesn't sit right with you, get as much info as you can and we can try to help. At the end of the day, if you want to PB to warranty the surface, you have to do as he says even if he's dead wrong on the technical facts.

Good choice on the lighter color. You will avoid a lot of the problems that are seen with grey and darker colored plaster. I'm sure you're plaster will look great once it's done.
Click to expand...

Matt, thanks for the continued info. Super helpful. Although candidly, my head is spinning and i understand very little of what you said lol. But, i plan to do more and more reading to learn as much as I can. Here is what i do know, that my PB is covering startup and chemical balancing for the 1st 30 days. So while i will test alongside them daily, I am likely not going to be changing anything unless it is incredibly concerning and warrants a conversation with the PB. One thing i heard that may be concerning is that they are going to be "delivering salt" when they arrive for startup. Hopefully that doesnt mean they plan to add it at startup. I am going to ask my PB to talk me through the startup process to better understand what they are going to be doing.

So when you refer to the startup period of ~30 days, does that mean we should not be swimming during that time? While it is winter here in FL, it is warm enough to swim even without the heater on some days. I know our kids and some of our visitors during that time are going to be dying to jump in also. if we have to wait, its not a big deal.
 
When our pool was built, the PB told me we could go swimming the next day (he used a hot, or acid-start process which is common for PebbleTec). I kept my kids out of the pool for week until I got the "pool school" from the PB which amounted to a lot of incorrect information. I will tell you this - your PB is probably really good at building pools and making them look beautiful. Very few PB's know anything about water chemistry. If I had known then what I know now, I would have demanded a lot more out of the startup process. While I don't think my plaster is any worse off for it (PebbleTek hides a multitude of sins...), I still would have done things differently. And yes, he threw salt in about 3 days later (pool was filled on a Th/F and he showed up on Monday the following week).

I don't know enough about the plaster product that he is using to be too terribly useful. It sounds to me like your PB uses some specialty plaster blend and aggregate and doesn't go with one of the major brands. That's ok but it just means that he and his plastering company or crew (does he do the plaster or does he sub it out??) are in total control of the interior surface. You can certainly ask him not to salt the pool and see if he'll go with it. He might agree to it and just leave it up to you to do later. However, without the SWG running (which it really shouldn't when plaster is new), you'll need to chlorinate the pool manually or else you'll get algae which would be a really bad thing to do to new plaster.

I would stay out of the pool for the first 30 days. While the plaster is curing the pH is going to be all over the map and there's likely going to be plaster dust in the pool for a least a week. That's not a comfortable environment to swim in. Also, you do not want to run any robotic cleaners or vacuums with wheels on them during the plaster curing period or else you could mar the surface.

Again, all things that need to be addressed with the PB to see what he plans to do. He may not appreciate you asking him about the details but it's the only way to know what's going on.
 
10-4. PreMix Marbletite is a product used frequently here in Florida. It is a competitor of DiamondBrite and Florida Gem. They also offer a 10 year warranty. And the PB is subbing out the plaster job to a local company that only does interior finishes.
 
Ok, well it sounds like the plaster sub is going to do the application and then hand it off to the PB to complete the startup. They'll likely do the install and either throw your garden hose into the deep end and turn on the water or instruct you to do it after a certain number of hours. Then your PB will come out to do the startup. At least that is the most likely scenario.

There's not much to do with the plastering sub. They're likely not even going to talk to you other than to say hello and goodbye. So I wouldn't bother too much on that front. The PB and his startup procedure is where you want to focus attention. My biggest concerns would be not getting any salt in the water and isolating the heater and SWG for the break in period. You'll likely get the "I build 300 pools a year and never had a problem, blah, blah, blah..." speech, but see what he's willing to work with you on.

Let us know what you come up with.
 
Lets break this down into smaller pieces. I had to read is several times and am not sure I really understand it all. Matt feel free to correct me if I get something wrong.

-Your water is mildly aggressive (CSI ~ -0.1 to -0.2 depending on what the water temperature is). He used Pool Math as seen in the blue oval above. If you put in your test values you will see a place in it that shows CSI. This is very important for plaster pools and heaters. You can play with the different values to see what they do to the CSI. It is kind of neat to see how this or that changes things.

-If you read the Bicarb Startup Process that onBalance has developed, you'll see that they have a very simple formula for filling the pool when water is aggressive and that is the sum of the CH and TA should be ~ 500ppm to keep the water from leeching calcium from the pool surface. Here is the link to this: A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members this is the best way to do a plaster start up. It is also the most work. Not all PB are willing to do this or they do not know about it.

-It also provides enough carbonate anion in the water so that the calcium hydroxide in the plaster can easily convert to calcium carbonate. Depending on how fast you can fill your pool, it may be ok to just fill it up and then adjust the TA and CH so that the CSI value is near zero or very slightly positive. As you fill the pool, calcium is definitely going to dissolve into the water so, even though the incoming CH of the water is 150ppm, I would not be surprised at all if it's well over 200ppm or more once the pool is filled. This is very common and what happens with most pools. Just think of all of the pool that are done without knowing about TFP. YOUR pool's plaster will last longer since you know about TFP and what has been done using solid science and daily testing in thousands of pools.

-In that case, then all you might need to do is bump up the TA with a little baking soda and keep the pH tightly controlled to 7.8 while the plaster cures. This is the hardest part of a bicarb or traditional startup process - the pH and TA levels should be monitored DAILY and adjusted as needed because the pH rise is going to be fast & furious. You will go through gallons of acid and boxes of baking soda just trying to keep the pH and TA at proper values. This is where having your own test kit is going to come in handy! This is where you might "bump" into your PB. Unless he is sending some one once a day for 30 days.......they will adjust once a week meaning things will be way off for a while until they come to adjust during their weekly visit.

I hope this helped just a little.

We do NOT want you to worry. We DO want your plaster to be purrfect and easy to care for. We are here for you. Ask any and all questions no matter how small!

:hug:

Kim:kim:
 
kimkats said:
This is where having your own test kit is going to come in handy! This is where you might "bump" into your PB. Unless he is sending some one once a day for 30 days.......they will adjust once a week meaning things will be way off for a while until they come to adjust during their weekly visit.

I hope this helped just a little.
Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Very helpful indeed! And yes you are right, they will send someone weekly for 30 days. While I am certainly willing to test daily, I don't expect to be making any changes without my PB given they hold the warranty card. And we will certainly "bump" during that process if anything comes up. The PB is a rough around the edges, my way or the highway, New Yorker (no offense to any others here). And so am I (except I am from New Jersey - not sure what's worse). The way I look at it is - had I not found this site I would have not known any better. Anything I've learned here is a benefit. As it relates to start up chemistry, I'd like to not rock the boat unless there is a serious issue/concern. But I do plan to be following along over the 30 days and sharing results here.


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VERY good and solid way of thinking and working with the PB! Don't rock the boat unless it start taking one water and is about to sink!

LOL on knowing how you are and he is. Glad you have been able to work with him and get along. So long as you know where he is coming from and where he is going all is good says this Southern girl! "Well bless his little heart" said with all the love in my heart!

:hug:

Kim:kim:
 
kimkats said:
VERY good and solid way of thinking and working with the PB! Don't rock the boat unless it start taking one water and is about to sink!

LOL on knowing how you are and he is. Glad you have been able to work with him and get along. So long as you know where he is coming from and where he is going all is good says this Southern girl! "Well bless his little heart" said with all the love in my heart!

:hug:

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Ha! I wouldn't say we get along. In fact if I had to do it all over again I would have selected a different builder just based on how hard they have been to work with and how unorganized they are. Their customer service has been terrible. I know I am not their "typical" customer for a lot of reasons and I've also been VERY picky and specific. But they build a high quality pool though so it's a balance. Most of where we have bumped heads was on design specifics that I wished they discussed with me, that we likely have done differently.

Ok, tangent rant over! Now let's get PLASTERED!


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Your best bet is to review the NPC Start-Card with your PB -

Start-up Cards - National Plasterers Council

You'll notice it says at the end (Day 4-28) that the water needs to be tested and adjusted daily. If your PB is going to be there only once per week, I would ask for his permission to allow you to test and adjust the water as needed and you will send him the test results (text message?) before making any chemical adjustments.

This way it's more like a partnership than an adversarial relationship.


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