Intellicenter - IC60 - Intelliph problems

[Zaffor]

I run an intellicenter with intelliph and an IC60 which have been giving me trouble since pool was started 18 months ago.

I am running into 3 issues which may not all be related but I am suspect as Pentair seems to have been having issues with Iph and larger cells.

I run my pump 24/7 which seems to make the iph problems worse judging from what I read in other posts.

My first and original issue was that the intelliph would occasionally lock up where the screen would be stuck on SUPERCHLOR and pushing the buttons on the iph control panel would do nothing at all. I could still communicate with my Ic60 but until i reboot the intellicenter (power cycling the Iph) the intelliph would stay locked up. As soon as I would reboot it would begin to work as normal. There is no pattern to when it would freeze up as sometimes it would be fine for a few weeks and sometimes just a few days.

Second issue started very shortly afterwards where the IC60 would not keep my chlorine levels up. I was adding liquid chlorine to maintain the pool as if there was no cell installed. I was able to hold FC levels adding liquid chlorine every few days but not without. IC60 seems to function normally, I am able to make changes to output and the lights coincide and the cell reports salinity back to the intellicenter.

Pentair changed out the intelliph controller to try to solve the freezing up and then after replaced the flow switch on the IC60 and then swapped out the entire IC60. I was running the IC60 at 100% 24/7 on a 15,000g pool and adding chlorine regularly. A few weeks later I noticed the IC60 lights were off and when I investigated further I found the plug and board on the Iph had melted and the surge board in the intellicenter was also damaged.



Pentair swapped out the surge board and the entire Iph controller (box and all) and everything began working fine. IC60 was set at around 24% and FC levels were steady.

Several weeks pass and I notice the iph froze up again. Could be that this issue was never resolved and that it just so happened that it ran fine for a few weeks before feeezing up. After reset as before it resumes normal operation.

After a bit of back and forth with pentair they again swap out the intelliph controller again. A few weeks after it freezes up again. Several weeks pass of me rebooting the panel every so often to get the iph running and I notice my FC start dropping. I increase little by little up to 100% and FC still fails to hold. Now i am back to adding liquid chlorine as I was before the surge board and iph were changed out.

I took the iph offline and connected the IC60 direct to the intellicenter but the issue persists. The surge board and intelliph show no visible damage.

I took voltage readings near the cell and I get between 32.5 and 32.7 vdc when the cell light is on and 41.6 vdc when the cell light turns off. (During the run/off cycle).
33.7vdc and 41.9vdc at the output of the surge board. Looks like 15.4 vac coming into the surge board from the transformer. All lights seem to be working on IC60 and I am able to control it via the intellicenter. Just seems to either not produce chlorine or not produce enough to keep my FC level up. Adding liquid chlorine seems to work fine.

Any suggestions welcomed if anyone has any ideas on what to test or try. Hate to just keep swapping out parts until the warranty eventually runs out.

Thanks to @ogdento and @Dirk for the help on the other post i piggybacked onto. I created a new post as suggested to make this easier to track for anyone else who may have some input.

Thanks!

 

[Zaffor]

Current surge board

 

[Dirk]

So you are on your third IntellipH, and your second IntelliChlor 60 and your second surge card? Is that right?

If that's true, then I can think of only a few things, and it might be a combination of these, which would frustrate the troubleshooting:
- You have an algae issue or something else in the water is consuming chlorine
- The IC power supply transformer is bad
- Internal or external wiring is bad (a voltage leak or intermittent short)
- Something is wrong with the condition of the electricity supplying your equipment
- The IntelliCenter is bad
- The IntellipH overcurrent issue is causing the freezing and the inconsistent IC60 performance. It's seems impossible that the symptoms would span three new units but it is possible.

I haven't heard of the freezing IntellipH before. And I think you said that happened on at least two different units. And you've had two surge boards, too. That points to the transformer, or the power grid. Or perhaps a faulty IntelliCenter relay or faulty wiring. Which also might explain the IC60 weirdness. Something is wrong with the power source or its path. Which includes the IntellipH.

You can do an OCLT to rule out the pool water consuming chlorine. You might do it twice, to prove to Pentair that it's not your water.

Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)

The Overnight Chlorine Loss Test tells if the SLAM is finished or if you need to start a SLAM. This article says how to do the OCLT.

www.troublefreepool.com

Bypass the InteillipH and track if the IC60 problem reoccurs (after passing the OCLT). If everything else is fine without the IntellipH, then your IC60 and any IntellipH are not compatible. Run the IC60 from the IntelliCenter, and run the acid tank pump from an IntelliCenter relay (we can walk you through how to do that).

If your water is fine and the IC60 can't maintain FC with the IntellipH bypassed (removed), then it's back to the transformer, IntelliCenter or the power source.

I don't know how to test for the reliability or condition of the power supplying your equipment pad. Maybe a knowledgable electrician would.

Everything else would be on Pentair. Or your pool builder. I would make sure you're documenting everything, and communicating with your builder and Pentair in writing, at least via email. You should establish that this has been an ongoing problem with your system, so that if this persists past your warranty period, you have proof that your system never worked reliably. In CA we have a lemon law (or something to that affect) that would cover a situation like this, where you've had continuing trouble with a product beyond all reasonable resolutions. I think the law requires the provider to replace or refund. Maybe FL has something similar.

Continue to work with Pentair and insist that they either get to the bottom of the problem, or return your entire purchase price (and start over).

That's a jumble of possible solutions. Your problem(s), if not your water or your power grid, is so out there that I can't offer any other ideas.

Perhaps @1poolman1 or @JamesW have run across this type of craziness...

 

[Dirk]

Thought of one other thing. Ask Pentair or your builder to swap your IC60 for an IC40. An IC40 is big enough for your pool and pulls less current. It might be something to try, if, in fact, this is all somehow related to the overcurrent issue. You can sort out with your builder the price difference.

 

[Zaffor]

@Dirk thanks for all the suggestions!!

they have swapped out intelliph control board 3 times counting the burned out one. The surge board was only swapped out once after it looked damaged as well. I can run a few OCLT in case they ask, good idea.

I thought about the wiring but I checked my connections several times. I had to extend the 4 wire IC cable and ran it through conduit. A few other users here have done the same (thats where I got the idea) without issue. I have checked continuity on all 4 wires up to my jbox and everything looks clean. When the wires were damaged at the iph nothing else showed any discoloration from overheating. I used a terminal block to make the connections but could easily just solder them if that was questionable.

I am using all 10 relays on the intellicenter so I am out of options with using a free relay for the iph.

I also wonder if the iph problem can cause all these issues together but I havent seen anyone else complain about the iph freezing up. That could be related to running the pump 24/7 since any other cycle would power cycle the iph daily and the user would never see if freeze up.

I am running it now without the iph and am still having FC loss. I wondered if the surge board was already somehow damaged due to the iph issue or if its something else altogether. Seems so odd that it started working fine for a few months after they swapped out the surge board.

I also wondered about the transformer but I dont really know how to test that other than to measure voltage.

I will run the OCLT and report my findings.

I wouldn’t mind running an IC40 (i bought the 60 because I thought it could possibly last longer as I would have to run it at a lower percentage) my pool size isnt large and the 24hr run time would definitely allow enough production. I think there are pools in S Fla with IC20s but they have to run them at 100% with no headroom.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

 

[Dirk]

Yah, I would leave the IpH offline until you solve the wandering FC problem. That will really narrow down the troubleshooting. You've got the IntelliChlor wires going through your terminal block? Are they of sufficient gauge? Personally, I would solder those. You've already experienced the effect of running that amount of current through a connector! At least for now that would eliminate eight terminal connections from the equation. Be sure the cable you've used to extend the IC cable is of the same gauge or larger than the original cable.

We'll regroup after the OCLT. Hopefully the experts I've called to your thread will have some suggestions, too. Lazy bums, they probably want to take Sunday off!! Whaddayagonnado?

 

[Zaffor]

Yah, I would leave the IpH offline until you solve the wandering FC problem. That will really narrow down the troubleshooting. You've got the IntelliChlor wires going through your terminal block? Are they of sufficient gauge? Personally, I would solder those. You've already experienced the effect of running that amount of current through a connector! At least for now that would eliminate eight terminal connections from the equation. Be sure the cable you've used to extend the IC cable is of the same gauge or larger than the original cable.

We'll regroup after the OCLT. Hopefully the experts I've called to your thread will have some suggestions, too. Lazy bums, they probably want to take Sunday off!! Whaddayagonnado?

I will solder and heatshrink that connection. connections in the intellicenter are made with the same molex connector that the original pigtail used. The matching connector to the small pigtail that comes out of the surge board.

I used 16AWG copper which is what the intellichlor wire said on the insulation. I tried to match all the intellivalve communication temperature and intellichlor wires to the original gauge used.

 

[Dirk]

I used 16AWG copper which is what the intellichlor wire said on the insulation.

That would be the way to determine the gauge, but the wires inside my IntellipH and around my surge board (a different type than what you have) are definitely larger. I'd guess 12ga, not 16. Not sure what that means.

I thought of a way for you to test the output of your IntelliChlor (IC). There may be a better way, but this is one way.

Your eyeball returns should be the newish type, that have 1.5" threads. You'll need to note the position of one and then remove it. You'll need a 1.5" PVC adapter thread-to-slip, about 2' of 1.5" PVC and two 1.5" elbows. You don't need to glue anything. Thread the adapter into the eyeball socket, then a few inches of PVC, then an elbow pointing up, then enough PVC to get out of the water, then another elbow to point at the pool.

From that "periscope" you could collect a sample of water directly from the IC, that would not be diluted with water already in the pool.

I don't know what the FC should be, but maybe others here can help you calculate it. More importantly, you'd be establishing a baseline, to see if the FC coming out of the IC is changing intermittently. You'd need to be sure the pool water is the same FC each time you test the FC coming out of the IC, or else you'll get skewed results. In other words, you want the water entering the IC to be of a known and reproducible FC so that whatever the IC adds can be measured out of the periscope. So you'd bring your pool up to your control value, say FC5, with liquid chlorine, wait 30 minutes or so, test the pool again to make sure it's FC5, then turn on the SWG wait until it's producing, then test the water out of the periscope.

It's clunky, but it should work. Then you could study over time if your IC's output is actually changing. Especially if Pentair gives you another one, or you switch to an IC40. You'd measure the new one and record the result. Then when you think your problem has returned, you'd measure it again and see if it's actually producing less chlorine or not.

Or, like I said, maybe someone else can think of a more elegant way to troubleshoot your IC's true chlorine output.

 

[Zaffor]

Morning!
I saw no noticeable drop in FC this morning vs last night. Levels were pretty high as I usually add liquid chlorine at the beginning of the week. I work at the Fire Dept on a 24hr shift so In case I get stuck at work I added half a jug. Since I have to add manually the FC fluctuates way more than when the cell worked.

I thought the same thing the first time this happened. I even ran a SLAM just in case but nothing changed. As soon as that surge board (and the iph also) was changed out, the cell started working. I actually overshot the percentage and had to lower it as my FC levels were climbing.

I think I can get samples from one of the returns easily even with a flexible hose. I can also loosen one end of the cell with a strap wrench and take water there. Heck even with a soft bottle squeezing it and jamming it up to the first return (and drawing in water while preased up against it.

I shut cell off overnight to make sure it wasnt producing any extra FC to skew my results. Im going to run it at 30% and measure later today to see what (if any) the FC drop is.

 

[Dirk]

So if it's not algae, then try to "catch" your IC60 producing intermittently, with whatever method is the most repeatable and accurate. Keep a log. See if there is a trend. And of course pay particular attention to the IC output if the current one gets replaced.

My first thought was just putting something in front of a return to capture the SWG output, but I didn't suggest that because I'm not sure you could do that without getting some pool water in there, too, which would skew the results. Capturing too close to the SWG might not work, (and this is just a guess) because the SWG produces chlorine gas, and it takes a bit for the gas to "mix" with the pool water. I think at the return is best. I like your flexible hose idea, if it seals well to the return.

 

[Zaffor]

At 30% im dropping from 19 to 12 in 3 days time. I picked up some OT at work so I had not added any liquid chlorine. I still have to try a sample from the jet to compare

 

[Zaffor]

I reopened my ticket (or opened a new one) with pentair. Guy I spoke with said he didnt know of any incompatibilities with iph and ic60 (or 40). Lets see what they do this time around. I need a solution that will last amd not one that will just linger until the warranty runs out.

@Dirk do you know what pentair forums have topics like these? Other than TFP? I saved that link to the US consumer product safety commission page but that is referencing an easy touch. (Same issue with a different controller)

 

[Dirk]

I don't, other than the references I found in the "Questions" section of the IntellipH page on Pentair's website. The "melting connector" issue is mentioned. I didn't go through all the pages of the Questions, so maybe there are even more references. Some component of the Pentair family is aware of the issue. It's posted on their own website! They are either not sharing this info with their support staff, or are ignoring it for some reason. And it's possible the info we've been getting here, and repeating, about Pentair specifically warning against the IpH/IC60 combo, is actually from Pentair service people, who are "on the ground" and seeing the problem, but Pentair perhaps has yet to officially deal with it. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but this has been going on for a while, like years now, and you yourself have submitted claims that clearly depict the issue. As have others. How could Pentair not know? And how, or why, would they ignore a potential fire danger? And do they have a policy not to allow support staff to share known issues with consumers? Only questions, no answers.

IntellipH® pH Chemical Controller

IntellipH Controller is a safe and convenient way to regulate a swimming pool's ph level. It automatically dispenses muriatic acid into the pool to eliminate fluctations in the pH level. IntellpH is the perfect companion for the IntelliChlor salt chlorine generator.

www.pentair.com

 

[Dirk]

By the way, just reported today, another member, with a fried connector, applied the fix that @ogento and I have been working on, and it worked. So that is both a reliable fix and a reliable way to prevent the problem in the first place. Well, we don't have long-term data on the viability of the fix long term, because it was first tried a few days ago! But we now have proof of concept, at least. So at the very worst, if you keep getting new ones, then you can apply the fix on the day after your original warranty expires, and have an excellent chance of being free of the defect. I'm referring to the IntellipH part of your problem, not the IntelliChlor half. Sorry, I still have nothing new for you on that front, other than what I've already suggested.

Another IPH burned connection issue

Roughly two years ago I bought a used but in good condition IPH to manage ph with my IC40. Everything worked well until this year when the IC40 started randomly power cycling, running through the startup procedure then shutting off and starting the same loop. In troubleshooting I noted when...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Zaffor]

Still waiting on the tech guy to come “check things out” will report once I have more info.