IG Vinyl Build: It's Happening!

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And back to the Ford thing. Even if Ford did divulge info about your Mustang, when it comes on the truck the dealer may decide its worth $15k over sticker price and it's no longer yours. None of their info matters until you are holding the keys.

That said, we are partners in battle, so any affront on you cuts me just as deep. We ride at dawn. :)
 
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I can only frame this in terms of CA law. If there is a contract, even a verbal one, you have to give the contractor the opportunity to execute the contract before you fire him, or take matters into your own hands. That's what the demand letter is for. It starts the clock. Among other things, it states (1) what the original deal was (dates and scope, etc), (2) what's been done to date (right or wrong) and/or what the problem is, (3) what must the contractor do to make things right, (4) how long he has to do it, and (5) that you intend to (a) cancel the contract (fire him), and/or (b) hire someone else to complete the contract, if he doesn't perform by the deadline, and finally (6) that you will sue him for damages (your actual out-of-pocket expenses to make things right) if he doesn't perform by the deadline. In CA it's all of the above, but especially #6, that makes it an official demand letter.

Then you wait out the deadline (which must be reasonable). He'll either comply or not. If he complies (and probably even if he partially complies), you're kinda stuck with him. If he doesn't, then you're free to finish the pool yourself, or hire someone else to do it. And then you can try and sue him for your actual damages. You'll have to prove that the letter was sent, and that he didn't comply, and what your actual damages are. You won't get "pain and suffering" or punitive damages, etc. You may or may not win. You may or may not be able to collect the damages.

But if you just fire him, without the demand letter and the deadline, then, believe it or not, you're in the wrong and it makes it much harder to sue and win, if not impossible. And where it gets even more vague, is if you perform actions that undermine his execution of the contract, he could possibly use such actions to cancel the contract himself, which may or may not be a legitimate cause (to a judge).

So you have to be strategic when you pull the demand letter trigger. It might get him back on the job (whether you want that or not), and it might completely alienate him. Alienating him might mean you never see him again, or it might mean you're stuck with a contractor building your pool that despises you and might be willing to take it out on the quality of the work or materials. Of course, it's possible the alienating has already occurred, justifiably or no.

So be careful about "end-running" your contractor (or whatever your intention is for going directly to the supplier), because that could backfire. Just be prepared for the consequences: like ending up with a guy you don't want building your pool badly, or a guy you do want building your pool taking even longer and/or doing it badly. Or you could be jeopardizing a relationship with a guy that would have done a good job otherwise, but just had some supply-chain issues. Or you might just get a guy off his butt and get him to get started. Probably other scenarios, too...

So you'd google, or seek some small-claim advice, or advice from a contractor's license board, to see if Ohio works the same way, before you write a letter, and before you start taking matters into your own hands (however innocent those actions might seem to you).
 
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Ohio does have a contractors licensing board:

Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board

com.ohio.gov com.ohio.gov

The first paragraph of their website makes it a little vague whether a pool contractor needs to be licensed in Ohio, but it seems so. Is your contractor licensed? Did you check beforehand? Or check his license status/standing beforehand?

Anyway, they might be a good place for you to start...
 
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Dirk said:
I can only frame this in terms of CA law. If there is a contract, even a verbal one, you have to give the contractor the opportunity to execute the contract before you fire him, or take matters into your own hands. That's what the demand letter is for. It starts the clock. Among other things, it states (1) what the original deal was (dates and scope, etc), (2) what's been done to date (right or wrong) and/or what the problem is, (3) what must the contractor do to make things right, (4) how long he has to do it, and (5) that you intend to (a) cancel the contract (fire him), and/or (b) hire someone else to complete the contract, if he doesn't perform by the deadline, and finally (6) that you will sue him for damages (your actual out-of-pocket expenses to make things right) if he doesn't perform by the deadline. In CA it's all of the above, but especially #6, that makes it an official demand letter.

Then you wait out the deadline (which must be reasonable). He'll either comply or not. If he complies (and probably even if he partially complies), you're kinda stuck with him. If he doesn't, then you're free to finish the pool yourself, or hire someone else to do it. And then you can try and sue him for your actual damages. You'll have to prove that the letter was sent, and that he didn't comply, and what your actual damages are. You won't get "pain and suffering" or punitive damages, etc. You may or may not win. You may or may not be able to collect the damages.

But if you just fire him, without the demand letter and the deadline, then, believe it or not, you're in the wrong and it makes it much harder to sue and win, if not impossible. And where it gets even more vague, is if you perform actions that undermine his execution of the contract, he could possibly use such actions to cancel the contract himself, which may or may not be a legitimate cause (to a judge).

So you have to be strategic when you pull the demand letter trigger. It might get him back on the job (whether you want that or not), and it might completely alienate him. Alienating him might mean you never see him again, or it might mean you're stuck with a contractor building your pool that despises you and might be willing to take it out on the quality of the work or materials. Of course, it's possible the alienating has already occurred, justifiably or no.

So be careful about "end-running" your contractor (or whatever your intention is for going directly to the supplier), because that could backfire. Just be prepared for the consequences: like ending up with a guy you don't want building your pool badly, or a guy you do want building your pool taking even longer and/or doing it badly. Or you could be jeopardizing a relationship with a guy that would have done a good job otherwise, but just had some supply-chain issues. Or you might just get a guy off his butt and get him to get started. Probably other scenarios, too...

So you'd google, or seek some small-claim advice, or advice from a contractor's license board, to see if Ohio works the same way, before you write a letter, and before you start taking matters into your own hands (however innocent those actions might seem to you).
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While thorough and greatly appreciated, every time I read your response I try to see where I’m gonna fit all these hours into everything else I’ve got to do :ROFLMAO:

I’ve got lots of research to do, but I think one thing that sticks out for me is I don’t think I have actual damages yet. The project hasn’t even started…that’s the problem. It’s not supply chain or anything at this point. Literally, the only thing holding it up or he’s not ready to start my neighbors so he won’t start mine. Hasn’t even responded to me in over two months on anything. Again, signed and put deposit down October 2020 for July 2021 dig (unfortunately, date not on contract).

I don’t know how I could’ve alienated him. His office manager says I’m her favorite customer. I’ve bought his crew lunches, given Christmas presents, referred additional business to him, dropped treats off to his office. I’ve never once yelled or gotten upset with him. It’s probably my career in sales but even though I’m paying him I am having to sell him on why he should help me.

For the life of me, I have no idea what I could’ve done differently to this point.
 
In CA, a contractor can't take more than a 10% deposit. Check OH, that might be some ammo. Also in CA, a contract must have a 3-day cancellation clause, without one the entire contract is void. Check on that.

So your contract is missing start and finish dates? No performance clauses?

Do you want him to install your pool? Or do you want your money back and be able to hire someone else?

Decide what you want, then call the OH Cont. Board. See what they say. In my case, I was assigned a case worker, and I was able to speak with her. She negotiated between myself and the contractor. At first, she said he was not going to do anything, and that there wasn't much she could do, so take him to court. Then later, he just offered to pay. So she might have threatened him with something, or maybe the guy finally figured out that I wasn't going to go away. At the very least, your Board should be able to tell you your rights, and explain the law, and maybe give you some options. They're likely going to ask for the demand letter. That's usually the first step, as they won't take action until you can show you've tried, and the contractor has ignored you. The demand letter makes that official. They'll know if that's the way it works in OH, give 'em a call.

You're probably getting Peter-Pauled. These guys spend more money than they have. They take large deposits, and then use it to finish some other job, robbin' Peter to pay Paul. Then they'll use the next guys deposit for your job, etc. He's likely slammed, taking on more contracts than he can execute, and he makes everybody wait until he can get to you. He'll keep pushing off the least squeaky wheel, whoever is giving him the least grief. The louder you get, the more he'll want to get you off his back. A demand letter, and/or a call from the Board, is gettin' loud. But then you face the possibility of p'in' him off. Like I said, you gotta strategize this and try to beat him at his own game...
 
Dirk said:
In CA, a contractor can't take more than a 10% deposit. Check OH, that might be some ammo. Also in CA, a contract must have a 3-day cancellation clause, without one the entire contract is void. Check on that.

So your contract is missing start and finish dates? No performance clauses?

Do you want him to install your pool? Or do you want your money back and be able to hire someone else?

Decide what you want, then call the OH Cont. Board. See what they say. In my case, I was assigned a case worker, and I was able to speak with her. She negotiated between myself and the contractor. At first, she said he was not going to do anything, and that there wasn't much she could do, so take him to court. Then later, he just offered to pay. So she might have threatened him with something, or maybe the guy finally figured out that I wasn't going to go away. At the very least, your Board should be able to tell you your rights, and explain the law, and maybe give you some options. They're likely going to ask for the demand letter. That's usually the first step, as they won't take action until you can show you've tried, and the contractor has ignored you. The demand letter makes that official. They'll know if that's the way it works in OH, give 'em a call.

You're probably getting Peter-Pauled. These guys spend more money than they have. They take large deposits, and then use it to finish some other job, robbin' Peter to pay Paul. Then they'll use the next guys deposit for your job, etc. He's likely slammed, taking on more contracts than he can execute, and he makes everybody wait until he can get to you. He'll keep pushing off the least squeaky wheel, whoever is giving him the least grief. The louder you get, the more he'll want to get you off his back. A demand letter, and/or a call from the Board, is gettin' loud. But then you face the possibility of p'in' him off. Like I said, you gotta strategize this and try to beat him at his own game...
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Thank you @Dirk (y)

Spent too much time researching Ohio laws last night. Found a lot of good laws in place for cases like this, however, none apply to me. They're all specifically designed for construction of residential dwellings. My deposit was 20% which I felt was reasonable because it's way less than the equipment was going to cost (steel walls, liner, pump, etc...)

Contract doesn't have a start/finish date. Didn't think I'd need one because I had in writing via e-mail I was to be his 7th pool for 2021 and the only reason I'm in this situation is because I referred business to him that he's waiting to do mine. Only performance clause is contract gives 60 days for completion once dig is started. Again, I don't think he's actually breached any contractual obligations, he's just a d-bag, and there aren't any laws against that.

I'll call the OH Construction Board, see what they can help with. I don't know when I'd be able to do the demand letter because I don't think there's actually anything he's broken contract on yet.

I am going to try the squeaky wheel tactic and contact him every day via phone/text asking for start date. I don't think he'll respond which may trigger demand letter situation. Maybe I've just been too nice to him so far. If I Tick him off or alienate him, so what, I'm in the same spot I'm in now with no swimming pool. I just don't want to have to eat the deposit, pay an additional $20K to another pool builder and then wait another year or two for their schedule (and take a chance I'd get anything in a lawsuit against my current PB).

Question: I have a pool contractor lined up (he doesn't build pools, only services them) to assist me once this pools done so I never have to see this PB ever again. I'm talking with him next week when he's delivering some parts (basketball/volleyball sets). It would be worth it to be to pay "Mark" some type of fee to assist me in once this pool starts. I will obviously post on here for all of your input but I'd like someone onsite to make sure things are done right because I feel whenever this pool does start, this build is going to be ugly and vicious (as much of a good Christian I try to be, my patience is about expired). What do you think about this route with "Mark"? I've already got him lined up to do any service/repairs I'll need after the pool is done.
 
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I did my own startup. It's not hard, and there is a lot of info here about it. I wanted to do it myself because I was confident in what I learned here, and I wanted it done perfectly. It's not a huge amount of time, but there's a lot of short tasks that are a lot to expect of a hired hand, like testing once or twice a day and brushing every day. But that's for new pebble. I expect for a vinyl pool there is less to do. Maybe a lot less. Sorry, I don't know much about it, but others here will know. I'd study up on it here first, perhaps do a search for "vinyl startup" and see what's involved.

As to ongoing maintenance, the TFP method is really easy and personally I wouldn't hire anyone for that either. It's just a few minutes a week, here and there, and like a pool startup, the only way to make sure it gets done correctly is to do it yourself. You'll need a good test kit (one of the two we recommend) and a pass or two through our pool school. I spend about 5-10 minutes a week on my pool, and after five years it still looks as good as new. The replaster I had to do, after the pool was less than five years old, was directly due to the "pool guy" that the previous home owner used. They literally destroyed the original finish, through sheer negligence. So for me, and probably for most of us here, no one else is ever going to touch my pool.

I understand your dilemma with your builder. If he hasn't breeched the contract then you've incurred no damages, and there is nothing to be done (legally). Check on the two legal angles I gave you (a max limit for a deposit, and the cancellation clause) as possible ways out of the contract should you ever need one. But you're right, just firing the guy could be a giant step backward, and that's assuming the next guy won't be even worse. I like your plan to ramp up the pressure to see what happens, and to check in with your State's Board, to see what your options are. Good luck.
 
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Thanks, I'm pretty confident in TFP methods handling regular service, etc., especially with SWG. Vinyl is pretty simple start up. I mostly want to have someone to trust opening and closing just to save me the time (and to provide a little peace of mind should the cold Cleveland winters get the better of the equipment that it was someone else's fault and hopefully get a little protection/assistance). Plus, I want to have a trusted source for the years when the liner does need replace, equipment goes bad, etc.

There's no max deposit limit I've come across. Only time max deposit has come into play legally from what I've found in Ohio is with a residential dwelling which is 10%, but can't find anything that would apply to a pool project. I'll keep looking for the cancellation clause and contact state board.

We'll see what the increased pressure on PB brings, but if I'm being honest with myself I don't think the PB will lose one bit of sleep over anything I do or say.

More to come, hopefully :ROFLMAO:
 
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TKpoolOH said:
if I'm being honest with myself I don't think the PB will lose one bit of sleep over anything I do or say.
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Yah, part of the problem is that this is not a repeat-business business. And when they're busy, they don't care about word of mouth so much. If he doesn't build your pool, someone else is already waiting in line. It's a seller's market for the most part, and they all know it...
 

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Well, putting the pressure on a little more than I'd like at this point. I've tried to keep my wife away from this (partly her choosing to stay out of it and partly mine because I know she has the world's shortest fuse; and sure enough, it was short and explosive!) Never fun when the spouse takes it out on you, but we both give and take in that arena. Anyhow, sent below text to PB (he didn't respond to my last 5 texts dating back to October 2021, when I switched to e-mail and got some responses from office manager). Would anyone like to start a betting pool on how long it takes for a response? :ROFLMAO:

Tom, my wife is screaming at me. I still need my pool built. I need answers and action from you ASAP. There is no reason for you to have not at least started our pool yet. The time for ignoring me is over. Trevor

And just so everyone knows, I had to tell my wife multiple times that her ideas to get this done would constitute harassment, possible assault, and various other acts of negligible legal standing. We might be calm now, I think ;)
 
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TKpoolOH said:
Yes sir, he uses iMessage like me so I’ve got delivery times and dates for everything he “never saw”
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Soooooooooooooo he's an idiot that never turned it off. :ROFLMAO:

Gotta love those people.that don't even know it's a thing, or how to turn it off, and then get regularally busted by it.
 
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Got an email this morning. He doesn’t know I know he’s built 3 pools already this year. His words below:

Trevor,
I wanted to reach out regarding the schedule. Please remember it was snowing and raining until the past Saturday. We are just getting started for the season.
We have 4 guys as of now. This is 6 people to manage our service center as well as construction. Our sub crew only has two guys at this point. We are moving slowly. I would estimate a start date of late June. We are trying. I apologize for the short tone of message. I am literally working from 6 am to 5every day and still getting message after message from people mad that we are not getting there fast enough.
 
What camera does everyone use to do those time lapses out their windows of their builds? I am clearly going to have to monitor the work that's done and I can't be here 24/7. I have a perfect window to record the project, just not sure what equipment to use. I have an old GoPro, but not sure if that would work to record for like 10 hours a day? Thanks!
 
Wyze cams with an added sd card in them for continuous recording. They also have cloud service available for a fee. I do not subscribe to the cloud service.
The v3 cams are outdoor rated & have a better pic than the v2’s. They are cheapest on the WYZE website but also available for about $5 more in person at Home Depot or on Amazon- the sd card is about $11
 
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