How to know actuator/valve configuration for water flow?

[pcm2a]

I want to set my actuator to be in pool mode regardless of the freeze mode switching from pool to spa. Before I do that and break the whole system I am trying to figure out one water flow item. In my below image there are 4 lines coming into the main pump: spa, two skimmers and the main pool drain. When the actuator is in the spa position it only pulls from the spa. When the actuator is in the pool position I assume that it pulls from everything, including the spa, otherwise the spa would be poorly circulated.

Is there any way to know for sure that this is correct? If it is not correct and I leave the actuator in the pool position that pipe would freeze.

(Ignore the frozen pond around my pool pump, it leaks water out every time the pump stops. I have a separate thread on that)

 

[Jimrahbe]

pcm,

Most pools/spas have the following three modes of operation..

Pool mode... Water is sucked from the pool by the pump and then pushed through the filter and back to the pool..

Spa mode... Water is sucked from the Spa by the pump and then pushed through the filter and back to the Spa..

Spillover mode... Water is sucked from the pool by the pump and then pushed through the filter and back to the Spa.. causing the water to "spillover" into the pool..

Some pools/spa have a separate "make up" line that constantly feeds the spa making it spillover.

With an automation system, most people run in the Spillover mode or they just schedule the spa to turn on (without the heater) for half an hour or so a couple of times a day to keep the water fresh.

With most automation systems, you can select what you want to be controlled by the freeze control.. So you can have Pool on freeze control and the spa not on freeze control. You can also tell the system if you want the pumps to shut off before moving the valve or not. In my system the pump does not shut off when the valves move....

Not sure that answered your question or not...

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[Dodger]

When the actuator is in the pool position I assume that it pulls from everything, including the spa, otherwise the spa would be poorly circulated.

Just to answer this specifically.... In your picture, it appears the valve is in the "Pool Only" or possibly "Spillover" mode. In either of those, it is not drawing any water from the spa. There is probably an "OFF" on the valve handle pointed directly in line with the spa intake pipe. Assuming the valve flap inside is working properly, there is no water coming from the spa.

Your "Spa" mode would rotate that OFF position 90 degrees to the right (ccw turn) and block all 3 inputs from skimmer and main drain.

 

[pcm2a]

You are right that I have a pool (with spillover but no spillover mode used) and a spa mode. You are also right about the valve handle and it rotating to block water from coming in from the pool in spa mode.

I know that just because it points to off on the handle doesn't have to mean off, it depends on how the valve is configured. I have another actuator/valve on the output of the main pump. In one direction it pushes water out to the pool and through the spa pump into the spa. In this mode "off" makes you think it is not pushing water through the spa pump...except you can see the water moving through the spa pump.

I may try sticking something down in the spa and see if it sucks to the drain.

 

[Dodger]

You are right that I have a pool (with spillover) and a spa mode. You are also right about the valve handle and it rotating to block water from coming in from the pool in spa mode.

I know that just because it points to off on the handle doesn't have to mean off, it depends on how the valve is configured. I have another actuator/valve on the output of the main pump. In one direction it pushes water out to the pool and through the spa pump into the spa. In this mode "off" makes you think it is not pushing water through the spa pump...except you can see the water moving through the spa pump.

I may try sticking something down in the spa and see if it sucks to the drain.

To me, that indicates your valve is misaligned with the handle. That is not good.
That can happen if the valve is manually over-rotated from the handle.

If you are comfortable disassembling it with the pump off, you can see what position the valve flap is in when you open up the top screws. You would also check the o-ring to make sure the valve flap is sealing.

Edited to add: You can also set the return valve to an in-between position to supply return water to both the pool and the spa. Then the OFF position would be between 0 degrees and 90 degrees. This can be set with the internal cams so it automates, or you can flip the switch to move the valve partially, then flip the switch to the middle (off) position. Warning that your automation will not move the valve while it is in the off position. (And I am not recommending to do this on your intake valve. Not sure if that is recommended generally.)

 

[Jimrahbe]

pcm,

The circled valve appears to me to have the Spa input completely shut off. The wide part of the handle points toward the port that is shut off.. meaning that the Spa suction is shut off.

Jim R.

 

[pcm2a]

Thanks I see my mistake in reading the valve handles now. In my photo I was playing with the handles and they were not in the right positions. Here is a photo of them in pool mode. The off on the output is not pointing down the pipe it is out in the air. I assume that is supposed to tell me that water is moving through both pipes (which it is). On the input valve the off is pointing down the spa pipe.

That's a bummer, it means I cannot leave the pool in pool mode during freezing conditions. If I did then the water in that pipe would never get circulated and would freeze.

 

[mknauss]

Use the toggle switch on the actuator and move the valve so it is open. Then place the toggle switch in the 'neutral' position, turning the actuator off, and water will be flowing through it all the time.

 

[Dodger]

Thanks I see my mistake in reading the valve handles now. In my photo I was playing with the handles and they were not in the right positions. Here is a photo of them in pool mode. The off on the output is not pointing down the pipe it is out in the air. I assume that is supposed to tell me that water is moving through both pipes (which it is). On the input valve the off is pointing down the spa pipe.

That's a bummer, it means I cannot leave the pool in pool mode during freezing conditions. If I did then the water in that pipe would never get circulated and would freeze.

Okay, on your output valve, what is the other position it rotates to?

On the input, I'm still not sure what you are trying to do. You do NOT want the system to oscillate between pool and spa Freeze Protect? You want to leave it in Pool Freeze Protect only? If so, you should be able to control this with your software.

Or are you concerned about the spa intake pipe before the valve (coming out of the ground and through the elbow?) You do or don't want that to have flow?

 

[pcm2a]

The toggle on the water intake valve only has 2 positions and off. One way off points down the spa input (pool mode) and the other off points down the 3 pool inputs (spa mode). I would need a third way that opens all 4 up.

Okay, on your output valve, what is the other position it rotates to?

It rotates so off points to the pool water output, which is spa mode. In spa mode it only outputs into the spa.

On the input, I'm still not sure what you are trying to do. You do NOT want the system to oscillate between pool and spa Freeze Protect? You want to leave it in Pool Freeze Protect only? If so, you should be able to control this with your software.

Yes I was hoping to keep it from changing into spa mode at all, it seemed like a waste every 30 minutes.

Or are you concerned about the spa intake pipe before the valve (coming out of the ground and through the elbow?) You do or don't want that to have flow?

I was concerned that the spa intake pipe before the valve would freeze if it was not circulated (the reason for this post). I was hoping that water was flowing through all 4 intake pipes in pool mode.

 

[Dodger]

Then do what mknauss suggests (I wasn't sure it was okay to do this on the suction side valve.) Reach underneath the valve box and you will find a toggle switch. There are 3 positions it moves to. Play with it and you will see. Then move it so OFF on the handle is pointed 45 degrees (out in the air, as you say) in between the 2 extremes. Then move the toggle switch to the middle, and it will disable the automation of this valve.

 

[mknauss]

Exactly....

Also should be done to the suction side. All above ground piping should have water flowing through it.

 

[pcm2a]

Are you saying that while the actuator is turned off I can manually move the valve handle to so "off" points out into the air (which would let water in through all 4 pipes)? I have never tried to turn one of the actuator handles manually, I thought it would break something.

 

[Dodger]

Exactly....

Also should be done to the suction side. All above ground piping should have water flowing through it.

Thanks Marty. I wasn't sure if there are any concerns about the pump suctioning from all pipes (spa and pool) at the same time, as in, if the pump is designed (strong enough?) to do so. My only experience with the in-between valve position is on the output side to create a spillover.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you saying that while the actuator is turned off I can manually move the valve handle to so "off" points out into the air (which would let water in through all 4 pipes)? I have never tried to turn one of the actuator handles manually, I thought it would break something.

No, do not move the handle manually. There is a switch underneath the valve body that will engage the electronics.
(technically, there is a way to move the handle manually after you loosen up a screw, but there is no need to venture into that for what you want to do)

I realize there can be some interpretation of "manual". What I'm trying to describe is not to touch the handle itself. Only move the position of it via the underneath switch, which is "manual" in the sense that it circumvents your software automation.

 

[mknauss]

I have my actuated valves set so that in pool mode I still have a small amount of suction and return to the spa while in 'pool' mode. You just adjust the trip switches in the actuator by adjusting the cam that activates them. Takes some trial and error. Keeps the spa chlorinated without a big spill over.

pcm2A -- you use the toggle to activate the valve to move it. When the valve is in the position you want, you toggle the switch to the middle, turning the actuator off. Do not manually attempt to move the valve with the handle.

 

[pcm2a]

Ok I just wanted to make sure we weren't talking about different things. The toggle on the water intake actuator only has 2 positions and off. One way off points down the spa input (pool mode) the other off points down the 3 pool inputs (spa mode), and off is off. There is no 3rd way that opens up both directions.

 

[mknauss]

Every actuator I have seen the toggle has three positions, with the middle one being OFF.

Take care.

 

[pcm2a]

Every actuator I have seen the toggle has three positions, with the middle one being OFF.

Same as mine. One of the positions is spa mode (no intake from pool), one of the positions is pool mode (no intake from spa) and the middle is off. I am not seeing a way to get it to rotate the handle so the spa intake and the pool intake is open. I feel like I am missing something that should be obvious from what you all are saying.

 

[Dodger]

If it is currently in Pool mode, with the handle OFF position pointing to the spa pipe, then move the toggle switch to the far opposite side. You should see the valve move toward the other position. When it has travelled part way there, move the toggle to the middle (neutral or off) position. The valve will freeze in that spot (no pun intended with Freeze Protection!!)

 

[pcm2a]

Half way! That's genius. Any concerns with the pump trying to pull from 3 pipes partially open and one pipe partially open? From an algae perspective it is not an issue.