Hi Everyone

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

I’ve been using this as a resource for a while but I think at some point you sort of surpass the information that’s already been provided and have to actually get your hands dirty. I have been involved in pool care for a couple of years, but the person who was always “at the helm” died recently so I’ve had to pick up the slack. He was not as, let’s say, clinically minded as I am so there Are some things I’m thinking about changing. I’m really glad to have found this forum!

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP!

 

[reggiehammond]

I’ve been using this as a resource for a while but I think at some point you sort of surpass the information that’s already been provided and have to actually get your hands dirty. I have been involved in pool care for a couple of years, but the person who was always “at the helm” died recently so I’ve had to pick up the slack. He was not as, let’s say, clinically minded as I am so there Are some things I’m thinking about changing. I’m really glad to have found this forum!

Welcome - sorry to hear about the loss, but we can help get you squared away!
From your other post, it appears you’re not testing your own water.

It’s really imperative to get a proper test kit, and use it! Pool store testing is notoriously inaccurate, and only used to encourage you to spend more $$ on unnecessary chemicals.
Test Kits Compared

With self-testing, you can report results, photos of the pool, and get expert advice in minutes.
How Clear is TFP Clear?

 

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

Welcome - sorry to hear about the loss, but we can help get you squared away!
From your other post, it appears you’re not testing your own water.

It’s really imperative to get a proper test kit, and use it! Pool store testing is notoriously inaccurate, and only used to encourage you to spend more $$ on unnecessary chemicals.
Test Kits Compared

With self-testing, you can report results, photos of the pool, and get expert advice in minutes.
How Clear is TFP Clear?

I do have a testing kit and test religiously (probably more so than is necessary, actually) with the Taylor K-2005. I also have a pH and TDS meter (the pH meter I am dubious of). Thank you.

 

[reggiehammond]

I do have a testing kit and test religiously (probably more so than is necessary, actually) with the Taylor K-2005. I also have a pH and TDS meter (the pH meter I am dubious of). Thank you.

Ah ok. TFP doesn’t really put any stock into TDS. The K2005 doesn’t have FAS-DPD chlorine test - you should add that so you can properly test for FC and CC separately.

Make sure you read the FC/CYA page - your FC in pool log is really low.
FC/CYA Levels

 

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

Ah ok. TFP doesn’t really put any stock into TDS. The K2005 doesn’t have FAS-DPD chlorine test - you should add that so you can properly test for FC and CC separately.

Make sure you read the FC/CYA page - your FC in pool log is really low.
FC/CYA Levels

Interesting. I’ll look into procuring FAS-DPD reagent. Anything to give me more data.

My pool runs an ozone system and mineralization cartridge (primarily copper and silver I believe?). I was told that this would lower my chlorine demand and allow me to run as low as 2 ppm. Is this true?

 

[reggiehammond]

Interesting. I’ll look into procuring FAS-DPD reagent. Anything to give me more data.

My pool runs an ozone system and mineralization cartridge (primarily copper and silver I believe?). I was told that this would lower my chlorine demand and allow me to run as low as 2 ppm. Is this true?

Copper will simply serve to build up and stain your pool. It also necessitates complete replacement of the pool water, once levels build up. Ozone and mineral systems are not reccommended for numerous reasons - I would immediately remove.

The issue is that copper can function as algae prevention, but then allows you to run FC at levels that no longer provide sanitation to kill viruses, bacteria, etc.

The absolute best method for pool care is simple chlorine - either with liquid addition, or a salt water chlorine generator. The rest is just hocus pocus.

 

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

Copper will simply serve to build up and stain your pool. It also necessitates complete replacement of the pool water, once levels build up. Ozone and mineral systems are not reccommended for numerous reasons - I would immediately remove.

The issue is that copper can function as algae prevention, but then allows you to run FC at levels that no longer provide sanitation to kill viruses, bacteria, etc.

The absolute best method for pool care is simple chlorine - either with liquid addition, or a salt water chlorine generator. The rest is just hocus pocus.

I have never had issues with copper build up (and may have actually let the mineral cartridge lapse, now that I think about it). I test regularly so as to ward off staining.

What is the issue with ozone? It has demonstrable anti-microbial effects (Antimicrobial activity of ozonated water - PubMed). Is there some concern of damage to the liner?

I should also clarify that because of unseasonably cool temperatures the pool has not been “opened” which is why the chlorine is being run at a somewhat lowered level.

 

[wireform]

The ozone will actually eat up your chlorine.I have a pool with it and proved my theory after the pool kept going green. Now it sits on the pad staring at the pool with nothing to do. An expensive boat anchor at best once removed from the system.

 

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

The ozone will actually eat up your chlorine.I have a pool with it and proved my theory after the pool kept going green. Now it sits on the pad staring at the pool with nothing to do. An expensive boat anchor at best once removed from the system.

I believe the ozone creates a chlorate ion. I would imagine that something with such an extreme oxidation state would exert some degree of anti microbial effect (but I can’t find anything in the literature). The created chlorate ion would not show up in a DPD reagent test (DPD1 creates a red complex with hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite, whilst DPD3 creates a complex with chloramines).

 

[reggiehammond]

More info:

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Nature2 Fusion - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ThatOneExcelGuy]

More info:

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Nature2 Fusion - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Again, interesting. I question some of the points raised by the articles.

Ozone:
1) Whilst pools may be hydraulically inefficient, it is untrue to say that there is no amount of cycles that will have all the water seen by the filter (et al). If we allow an infinite number of cycles, eventually all the water will be “seen” (99.999… = 100). In practice the number is far less than infinity. Nothing is 100% effective (in theory).

2) I am not sure what is meant by a “low Henry’s law constant”. The HLC for ozone is actually relatively generous (higher than oxygen or nitrogen). I also think there may be some confusion about the use of the term. Henry’s law relates the solubility of a gas to its vapor pressure. Henry’s law says nothing about the solubility of a gas itself, but rather how it changes with the pressure applied (hence, ozone becomes proportionally more soluable when pressure is applied than the aforementioned oxygen or nitrogen). It is interesting to note that ozone is quite soluble in water (more so than oxygen because of its polarity).

3) Ozone can get to some of the “nasties” that have accumulated chlorine resistance (C. Parvum comes to mind). I assume most of the bubbles are either excess ozone (as the water would’ve been saturated) or the O2 gas that would’ve been produced by ozone’s post-oxidation decomposition.

4) In theory you could test for ozonation by testing the oxygen content in your water (in much the same way total chlorine is related to free chlorine). Directly, one could use the oxidation reaction of nitric oxide (readily available and conveniently a chemiluminescent reaction). In my view, ozone works the same way as sodium bicarbonate, it does it’s work quietly and then is released into the ether.

Mineral cartridge:
1) Does the silver not provide anti-microbial effects? As I understand it, silver works by damaging the proteins around bacteria’s DNA which eventually leads to DNA damage or death. These principles hold broadly the same in bacteria and viruses and is taken advantage of by several topical anti-septics (See Silver Sulfadiazine). Is there some threat of build up in a pool system?

2) Does the risk of algae bloom not outweigh the risk of copper staining. Many species of algae are now becoming resistant to pure chlorine and the only algaecides that are effect against them are copper based (or quaternary ammonia, which I am reluctant to use in a system predicated on calcium hypochlorite). If you have no issues with staining, as I do, why not get to copper sooner rather than later?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Texas Splash]

You should also read tis article.

Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!

Pool owners frequently seek out "Chemical Free" alternatives to pool water sanitization. Many claims in favor of these systems and methods have been made (usually by the manufacturers of such systems) often without adequate scientific proof of their efficacy. Let's take a look at them and see...

www.google.com

 

[reggiehammond]

Again, interesting. I question some of the points raised by the articles.

Ozone:
1) Whilst pools may be hydraulically inefficient, it is untrue to say that there is no amount of cycles that will have all the water seen by the filter (et al). If we allow an infinite number of cycles, eventually all the water will be “seen” (99.999… = 100). In practice the number is far less than infinity. Nothing is 100% effective (in theory).

2) I am not sure what is meant by a “low Henry’s law constant”. The HLC for ozone is actually relatively generous (higher than oxygen or nitrogen). I also think there may be some confusion about the use of the term. Henry’s law relates the solubility of a gas to its vapor pressure. Henry’s law says nothing about the solubility of a gas itself, but rather how it changes with the pressure applied (hence, ozone becomes proportionally more soluable when pressure is applied than the aforementioned oxygen or nitrogen). It is interesting to note that ozone is quite soluble in water (more so than oxygen because of its polarity).

3) Ozone can get to some of the “nasties” that have accumulated chlorine resistance (C. Parvum comes to mind). I assume most of the bubbles are either excess ozone (as the water would’ve been saturated) or the O2 gas that would’ve been produced by ozone’s post-oxidation decomposition.

4) In theory you could test for ozonation by testing the oxygen content in your water (in much the same way total chlorine is related to free chlorine). Directly, one could use the oxidation reaction of nitric oxide (readily available and conveniently a chemiluminescent reaction). In my view, ozone works the same way as sodium bicarbonate, it does it’s work quietly and then is released into the ether.

Mineral cartridge:
1) Does the silver not provide anti-microbial effects? As I understand it, silver works by damaging the proteins around bacteria’s DNA which eventually leads to DNA damage or death. These principles hold broadly the same in bacteria and viruses and is taken advantage of by several topical anti-septics (See Silver Sulfadiazine). Is there some threat of build up in a pool system?

2) Does the risk of algae bloom not outweigh the risk of copper staining. Many species of algae are now becoming resistant to pure chlorine and the only algaecides that are effect against them are copper based (or quaternary ammonia, which I am reluctant to use in a system predicated on calcium hypochlorite). If you have no issues with staining, as I do, why not get to copper sooner rather than later?

Thanks in advance.

TFP forums exist to teach the TFP way - not really to debate the merits of other means of pool care. The results speak for themselves - when all the other ways of pool care ultimately fail, people end up at TFP.

As with anything, you’re certainly free to take care of your pool the way you choose. We support that, but just think the TFP methods are the way to do it. Good luck with what you choose to do!