Help with SPA Main Drain Leak

[IcecreamMA]

The main floor drain in my Spa (concrete & pebble-tec) has two 2" ports on it - one on the bottom and one of the side. The one on the side is connected to the actual drain whereas the port on the bottom is plugged with a white, square headed Hayward 2" plastic cap (like this).

I've notice a leak in the spa. When it's full it could lose up to 4" of water a day, with the amount decreasing as the water level lowers (I assume less weight?) Using dye it looks like the leak is coming from the PLUG for the non-used port on the bottom of the main drain.

The water does not return to the pool, so it seems like it's just dissipating into the ground, which seems to make sense since that bottom port isn't connected... but I'm not sure.
I bought a new plastic plug and a tool to fit over the square to remove the old one. I want to replace it to fix the leak.

A few questions, if you don't mind:

1. Since this port was never going to be used, do they GLUE the plug in?
2. If so, can I just use the tool to break the seal or will this likely crack the drain pot?
3. If I get the old one out, do I need to use Teflon Tape on the new one? Both parts are plastic but it doesn't look like there could be an O-Ring.

I appreciate the help!!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

The drain in the bottom of the spa should be tied into the drain on the side of the spa, so I am a little puzzled as to what is actually going on.

Does the spa water go down with the pump running or just when the pump is off?

Do you have a raised spa that spillover into the pool?

Pics of the spa and your equipment pad would be great.

How do you know the water is not going back into the pool?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[1poolman1]

It is possible that is a hydrostatic relief valve, though I've never seen one in just the spa. There should be Teflon tape on the plug threads. Do not use Teflon paste and do not overtighten the plug as it could break the fitting it is threaded into. Some threads should be visible when it is tight. If a dye test shows the water going there it is a good place to start.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

The problem I have is that even if some water is going under the plug, where is it going? It can only go into the same pipe that is plumbed into the side of your spa. If the pipe is leaking, then water will just go into the side drain and out the same pipe.

While you might be spot on with what you think is bad, it just does not "feel" right to me.

If you can get the plug out, the first thing I'd want to know is.. Is the bottom drain and the side drain connected together as they normally are???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[IcecreamMA]

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate them.

@Jimrahbe I don't have much knowledge about this stuff (obviously), so I just assumed that the bottom plugged port had earth or something underneath it. Which now seems odd since if I was loosing 1,000 gallons of water into the earth under my pool, I feel like I'd see some pavers moving or shifting - which I do not. A connecting pipe makes sense, I just never thought of it.
- Yes, this is a raised spa that spills over into the pool.
- The spa water goes down when the pump is on and off. It goes down if I close all the spa drains and the "spillover" return.
- I've tested the pool water level by marking a line overnight, then losing 4 inches of spa water and not gaining any into the pool.
- I've replaced all the check-values, even did the Spa check-valve twice as I thought maybe the first new valve was just somehow faulty.
- Aside from the leak the spa works perfectly if I use it. I've not been using it since if I fill it, I lose and waste the water.
- I'd be happy and grateful to post pictures of the spa, pool and equipment tomorrow once I take them.
- To your second post, I suspect you're right. I have a feeling that replacing this plug probably won't fix this, but I thought it was worth trying. I'm just afraid to break the drain housing and then have the have the pebble-tec and concrete broken to put a new pot in.

@1poolman1 - I am 99.9% sure there is no hydro valve. I've just researched it, though. I do live in Florida so the ground never freezes and we never winterize the pool. When I look at the plug, I'm certain it is a normal plastic Hayward 2" plug with the big square head (w/ the H logo) on it. And it's just in a small spa that spills over into the main pool. So no Hydro valve, right? I will post pictures tomorrow for verification.

I've also plugged a secondary side drain (not in the main drain floor pot), every single jet outlet and the return where the water comes in to spill over... and the leak persisted without slowing down. Additionally it drains past the light fixture house (which I couldn't plug) so I know it's not a butle tape issue in the housing.

Again, thanks so much. I'll post pictures manana. If someone figures this out, I'll order you a pizza

***Edit - HERE are a few Pictures of the setup. I don't have any of the Spa or Pool but I'll update. This is my first pool, so I have nothing to compare it to... but when I showed the guys at the pool store this picture there were all like "Holy Moly, Greg come look at this guys setup!" So, I guess it's a convoluted or complicated one. There's all kinda returns, jets, waterfalls, solar heat, propane heat, controlled by remote. A lot of opportunities for valves and stuff to go wrong. *Sorry for the word.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

Your spa would have to be pretty huge for it to leak 1,000 gallons of water.

Most newer pools and spas have two drains covers that tie together into one pipe that goes back to the equipment pad. Often, in a spa, they put one cover on the floor and the other cover on the wall.

I assume when you took the cover off the floor drain, and there was just one pipe, and it was the one that is plugged. True??

You also took off the spa side drain cover and plugged the only open pipe that was there. True??

Plus, you plugged all the spa jets and the spillover return pipe. True?? What did you plug the pipes with???

How far below the light does it drain??

At first glance, this is impossible..

I guess you could have some kind of crack in the plaster/gunite, but you'd thank that would be pretty obvious.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[IcecreamMA]

** Bonus I found a picture I had previously taken of the Spa! **

Your spa would have to be pretty huge for it to leak 1,000 gallons of water.

Yes, you're right . I kinda meant that it's probably leaked 1,000 gallons total, over time, since I've filled it then let it leak and just kept refilling it for a while.

Most newer pools and spas have two drains covers that tie together into one pipe that goes back to the equipment pad. Often, in a spa, they put one cover on the floor and the other cover on the wall.

Ok, yeah - my spa does have two separate working drains, each with their own cover. There is a drain with one port built into the side wall that is fully functional in addition the the floor drain. The floor drain has two ports, one on the side of the pot that is functional, then the one on the bottom that is plugged. ALL the plugs I've installed have only been to test for the leak. The plug that I suspected was leaking is the only one that's ALWAYS been in there. I can and have removed every other plug after I tested to make sure it still drained with all of the being in there.

I assume when you took the cover off the floor drain, and there was just one pipe, and it was the one that is plugged. True??

Sorry, I think I explained it wrong. Hopefully the pics tomorrow will help. When I take the cover off the floor drain there are TWO ports. One active working side port and ALSO the plugged bottom port. Then another drain on the side of the wall that only has one port.

You also took off the spa side drain cover and plugged the only open pipe that was there. True??

Correct, the cover on the side of the wall only has open port and it's not plugged and has full suction (when the spa is running).

Plus, you plugged all the spa jets and the spillover return pipe. True?? What did you plug the pipes with???

I purchased the white Hayward plugs THESE to plug the jets. For the floor / spillover return I used a black rubber plug that you twist tight - THIS.
For the two working drains - side wall drain one and the floor one (that wasn't capped when I bought the house, I used THESE. Still drained with the spa fully turned off.

How far below the light does it drain??

All the way until there is only water left in the floor drain pot. So down past the sidewall drain, the light, the jets etc. Just a few inches IN the main floor drain pot. The functional port (not capped) in the floor, I also plugged with a Hayward white plastic plug (like the one I'm thinking of removing from the bottom port). Of course I never turned the spa on like this since everything was plugged. But even like this, it drains until there's only water in bottom drain pot. The floor is totally dry.

At first glance, this is impossible..
I guess you could have some kind of crack in the plaster/gunite, but you'd thank that would be pretty obvious.

Hopefully my explanation makes sense. When I look at the pebbletec I don't see any holes or cracks and the seal around the main drain pot seems to be tight in the concrete with no gaps or anything.

Thanks for your time, Jim R !!!!!!!!

 

[Noreaster]

How big is your pool, gallon wise?
I doubt you could detect 4 inches of spa water draining back into the pool. Its possible, but seems a little far fetched.
I am thinking there is a leaking 1 way valve that is draining the spa into the pool.

If you truly plugged any and all returns, jets and drains and you are still loosing water, i am theorizing its going out the one pipe you didn't plug. The light nitch wiring conduit.

PS - just a guess with what little knowlege i have. I don't claim to be smart here.


EDIT:
"All the way until there is only water left in the floor drain pot. So down past the sidewall drain, the light, the jets etc. Just a few inches IN the main floor drain pot. The functional port (not capped) in the floor, I also plugged with a Hayward white plastic plug (like the one I'm thinking of removing from the bottom port). Of course I never turned the spa on like this since everything was plugged. But even like this, it drains until there's only water in bottom drain pot. The floor is totally dry."

Holy Crud, huumm never mind the above then.... Your spa completely drains?

 

[IcecreamMA]

How big is your pool, gallon wise?
I doubt you could detect 4 inches of spa water draining back into the pool. Its possible, but seems a little far fetched.
I am thinking there is a leaking 1 way valve that is draining the spa into the pool.

That makes sense. I'm not sure the the gallons, I'll do the calculator, but just looking at other pools online... I'd say 15k gallon, certainly no less then 10k. So 4 inches of spa water probably might not move the pool water level up past my mark.

EDIT:
"All the way until there is only water left in the floor drain pot. So down past the sidewall drain, the light, the jets etc. Just a few inches IN the main floor drain pot. The functional port (not capped) in the floor, I also plugged with a Hayward white plastic plug (like the one I'm thinking of removing from the bottom port). Of course I never turned the spa on like this since everything was plugged. But even like this, it drains until there's only water in bottom drain pot. The floor is totally dry."

Holy Crud, huumm never mind the above then.... Your spa completely drains?

Yeah, it drains all the way down until there is only a few inches in the floor drain pot. A foot below the light housing. I've never let it 100% empty, it seems like it would... it just slows down so much when there is only about 1/2 a gallon of water in the drain pot.

Here is a picture of what it looks like when it's leaked down. The functional side drain port in my floor drain was plugged by me to test if that was the leak.
Whereas the plug in the un-used bottom port (the one I suspected) has been plugged since I got the pool.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

99% of all spa draining problems have nothing to do with the spa draining into the ground. But... in your case, I think your original diagnosis was spot on.

I suspect that the pipe/plug in the side of your bottom drain pot is connected to your side drain. The plug at the bottom of the drain pot most likely has no pipe and the plug just covers dirt.

You have done a great job of troubleshoot your problem, and I let my bias about the 99% get in my way.

I suggest that you take the bottom plug out and replace it. If it won't come out, I'd use some pool epoxy to seal it so it can't leak.

Sorry about the long way around to get to where you were on your first post..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Noreaster]

If you can get it down that low, id say, vacuum out all remaining water and open that bottom plug. See if the soil below is all wet. Also check the drain assembly for cracks.

Its seriously blowing my mind that the spa is draining that low.

 

[IcecreamMA]

99% of all spa draining problems have nothing to do with the spa draining into the ground. But... in your case, I think your original diagnosis was spot on.
You have done a great job of troubleshoot your problem, and I let my bias about the 99% get in my way.
Sorry about the long way around to get to where you were on your first post..

Thanks Jim! No need to apologize, I VERY much appreciate your insight & time; I can tell you absolutely know what you're talking about. I definitely learned from your posts & now understand the whole setup better.
I'm going to take a crack (let's hope no pun intended) at shop vac-ing the water out and removing the plug this afternoon. I'll post an update for sure.
* I do notice that it looks like there is some epoxy or maybe lose teflon tape strands on the bottom port plug. I'll take a picture before I try to remove it.

If you can get it down that low, id say, vacuum out all remaining water and open that bottom plug. See if the soil below is all wet. Also check the drain assembly for cracks. Its seriously blowing my mind that the spa is draining that low.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to do exactly this, today. Now that the water is so low I do notice some epoxy on the actual drain pot - on the inside near the top lip. I'm going to update with a better picture of the pot and the cap before I get to twisting this cap off.

 

[IcecreamMA]

OK, I got the last water out and took some good pictures of the drain. Seems like there is a lot of weird stuff going on here:

• The Bottom port "permanent" cap looks like it has a lot of Teflon Tape basically wrapped around the edges (in addition to the threads?)
• As you can see in the pictures, there is lose Teflon Tape that I can just peel off around the edge of the plug.
• Then there is what seems to be a ridiculous amount of Pool Putty all over the side of the drain pot itself.

PICTURES HERE

Should I scrape all of this putty off the sides? Or just add more?
From the pictures does it look like it's that plug since the tape is coming out / off like that?

I bought the house 3 years ago. The spa just randomly started leaking about 6 months ago. I didn't do or change anything prior to the leak.
The stuff I have done was replace check valves, install all those plugs, etc. The spa drain works just fine if we use it... but the leak just make it lose water every minute of every day.

Here's one picture, but there are 5 more in the link above

 

[Noreaster]

Bottom plug just has teflon tape. I think its fine and wouldn't touch it. yet anyway.
Whatever is going on at the top of the drain:

 

[Noreaster]

When i click on the link to see your pictures, i get this:

What else are you posting? LOL
This is what looks funky funky to me. Its as if someone cut the top of the drain off to do the pebble then used putty to reattach.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

If the pot stays full of water then the leak is at the upper part of the pot where the epoxy is..

If water drops well below the epoxy, then the plug with the tape is leaking.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[IcecreamMA]

@Noreaster That adult content warning is so weird. I can only assume it was that picture with my hand in it??? Some bot flagged it? No idea...
I don't know what the heck is going on with that putty, just globs around the inside of the pot. I didn't really realize it was that bad until I took these close up pictures. inside the drain pot. Is it advised to chip off and see what's underneath?

@Jimrahbe The thing that is so hard about this leak is that the water drains BETWEEN where all that putty is and the bottom plug. The longest I've let it set ended with the water being about 1 inch below where this mess of putty is on the sides. I assumed at the time that it was still leaking but the water so little that the weight wasn't "pushing" it out of the leaking spot. I don't even know if that's correct logic - I just assumed.
It just drains so slowly with a very small amount of water in there, it's hard to tell. If it rains for 5 mins, once while I'm waiting it resets the timer... if that makes sense.

Before messing with it - I think I'll fill the drain pot up to the top and see what happens. Although I've done it before and it seems to go down to like 4 inches of water then stop or leak so slowly I can't really notice much.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ice,

If this were my pool, and I had done all the thing that you have already done, I 'd remove the plug at the bottom and replace it just to make sure it was done right.

Then I'd fill the pot up and see what happens. If it did not leak, I'd leave the old epoxy alone. My gut says it will still leak, so that means chipping off the old epoxy..

Basically... you've come this far already, it would be a shame to take a short cut now.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[IcecreamMA]

@Jimrahbe Good enough for me! I shall replace the plug then see what happens. I figure if it seems weirdly tight, I'll stop. Like you said, it's not common to glue it, but I can't really be sure.

Question - Should I wrap the new teflon tape on the new cap the same way it was previously done? Normally when I use the tape I would just wrap the threads a few times, but as you can see whoever originally did it kind of folded it over the edge. I can see how this might help seal it, but I've never see it applied like this before.

Thanks again!

 

[Jimrahbe]

I'd do it like you normally do it, just on the threads.

Jim R.