Help with brand new hot tub...

[waskydiver]

Hi,

I've been using TFP process on my 15,000 gallon pool for years now without a problem. About a week ago, I got a brand new hot tub (Tropical Seas Spa Rio 751L).

It came with that Frog system, and a UV/Ozone sanitation system. I'm not a big fan of them. But, I figured since the Frog system is just basically dichlor (plus whatever the other cartridge is doing), I'd use it at least until my CYA gets to an acceptable level.

So far, I am ashamed to say that I am screwing things up. I overshot my CH to about 350, and am bringing it down with partial water replacements (family doesn't want any down time for the water to heat up). I somehow lost my K-1000 that came with my TF100, so I am having to use test strips to guestimate my pH. It's driving me crazy because the test strips say all is good, even the CH, which I know is too high. K-1000 replacement comes Monday.

I know that I am supposed to give full test numbers, but I can't test pH right now.

A few problems that I am hoping can be addressed with out them.

1) The water seems very foamy when the jets are on (but water is crystal clear when they are off). It starts out OK, but gets more foaming within a day or two. The foam dissipates quickly. But, I can also see foam on the ground when I drain it. I've drained it into my pool too (might as well put the heated water in the pool), and I can see small amounts of foam where it drains into the pool (also dissipates quickly). I don't think that organics/bather wastes could accumulate that quickly in a brand new tub.
2) There is a fairly strong plastic/chemical smell. It almost has the same "tang" as acetone.

I've completely drained the tub, and refilled and both of these problems came back.

Again, I know that I need complete numbers. I'm just hoping that someone could point to a possible source of these issues before I can get them. For example, I've had foam in my pool (a lot) by using splash-less bleach, or being impatient between adding baking soda and acid, or during an initial shock from dead algae when clearing a swamp. But, none of these issues apply to the hot tub, and I can't for the life of me figure out what the problem could be.

Or, maybe this is just the way hot tubs are and I am too used to pool maintance.

Thanks for your help!

 

[waskydiver]

I have some more information, and a bit of an "ah ha" moment.

Here are some numbers I ran:

CH: 240 (High, but not obscene)
TA: 60 (A little on the low side than I am used to in the pool, but should be OK)
pH: Low (Can only test with test strips right now.
CYA: 0 (Expected)
FC: 15 What?????
CC: 1.5

Where is all the chlorine coming from? I followed the start up instructions, that included adding about .75 oz of "Jump Start" (33% dichlor).

With no CYA, and FC of 15, that's way unsafe.

I double checked the chlorine numbers, and cross checked by checking the pool, which was reasonable.

I pulled the Frog cartridges out.

Could the high chlorine be causing the pungent, close to nail polish remover smell that doesn't really smell like CC? Could that be causing the foaming?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Mdragger88]

The chlorine will come down just leave it open, in the sun if u can -
Its likely the acidic dichlor lowered your ph to an undesirable level. Aeration is your friend & the rise happens quickly in a hot tub.
The ta is ok but u may not wanna go much lower-
U can put stabilizer in a sock/ knee high if u like- It ought not take it long to dissolve.
Did u do an ahhsome purge before u began? It’s recommended even on new tubs as biofilms can be formed after quality control testing.
If the smell persists u may wanna do that.
Maybe glue left in the lines from manufacture could be the cause of the foaming or perhaps the other ingredients in your startup pack
Good job on yanking the cartridges hopefully your reagents will be there soon.
I have a small tub (200 gal) & with frequent use i have to use dichlor to replenish my cya about every few weeks due to all the water i have to add/replace. I just use the spa selections stuff from Walmart- it says its 99% dichlor & my additions seem to test pretty accurately compared to PoolMath

 

[RDspaguy]

I am thinking there may have been something in the tub from manufacturing. Perhaps spilled primer in an air manifold or something that somehow got into the heater. I have no idea what that would do to chemical readings, but an odor like that is definitely not normal.
The "other cartridge" is a mineral purifier that releases silver and copper ions and is not likely the cause of the issue, unless it is in some way contaminated. I would remove the cartridges and change the water. If the odor and foam returns without the spa being used I would contact the dealer.
For that matter, I would contact the dealer now. With a new tub, it is the dealers problem, not yours. Unless your daughter was painting her toenails in the spa...
What color is the foam? Is there any residue in the filter?

 

[waskydiver]

Here's a picture of the foam, and in the background, the sparkling clear pool, which 2 months ago was a swamp. I can maintain the pool blindfolded using TFP method. A few glugs of bleach every day or two. Maybe a glug of acid once a week. Couple handfuls of baking soda a month.

But, the hot tub has me baffled. I'll leave the cover off in the afternoon, and maybe do another partial water drain (I want to get the CH down, anyway). But, I hate to drain it and start over again for a third time. This is humbling. I thought I knew what I was doing.

I'll also call the dealer, though I am dreading it. They will probably yell at me for taking out the frog cartridge, have no idea how I know that chlorine level is that high (looking at the test strips, the water chemistry looks perfect), and accuse me of peeing in the hot tub.

Sigh.

 

[Arizonarob]

If that were my tub, I’d start all over. You need to purge that tub using Ahh-some to get rid of any left over residue from manufacturing.

 

[RDspaguy]

The mineral cartridge has to be replaced any time you drain it.
Test strips are not reliable. Use your test kit. If it is pvc primer or some other chemical you cannot trust your readings anyway.
Biofilm does not smell like acetone. You should always purge a new spa, but if you have some other chemical in there it could be a problem.
Call the dealer. Give them the chance to be ethical before you assume they are not.
IS THERE A VISIBLE RESIDUE ON THE FILTER? Is it yellowish and sticky?

 

[waskydiver]

. If it is pvc primer or some other chemical you cannot trust your readings anyway.

I'm starting to get that impression. The FAS/DPD test behaved oddly. I'm using a magnetic stirrer, and the red would clear after about 4 drops. Then after about 5 seconds, the red would come back. I would clear it with more drops, and the red would come back again, until I got up to 15.

The first time I did the test, I got a FC of about 3, not catching the red coming back. But then I got a CC over 10, which is more craziness. I tested my pool with the same reagents, and it behaved exactly as expected.

There was no residue on the filter. I rinsed them when I drained the water, but there didn't really seem to be anything to drain. Maybe they were a LITTLE darker than I expected for brand new cartridges with a little more than a day on them.

 

[RDspaguy]

Ok. I ask because I have seen an issue with ozone generators put on the wrong mazzei injector producing a sticky residue, foam, and a burn your nose kind of chemical smell. It's the only thing I can think of that could be causing this other than a contaminant in the tub. If you want to experiment, unplug the ozone/uv and see if it stops.

 

[BravoRomeo]

I'm starting to get that impression. The FAS/DPD test behaved oddly. I'm using a magnetic stirrer, and the red would clear after about 4 drops. Then after about 5 seconds, the red would come back. I would clear it with more drops, and the red would come back again, until I got up to 15.

The first time I did the test, I got a FC of about 3, not catching the red coming back. But then I got a CC over 10, which is more craziness. I tested my pool with the same reagents, and it behaved exactly as expected.

There was no residue on the filter. I rinsed them when I drained the water, but there didn't really seem to be anything to drain. Maybe they were a LITTLE darker than I expected for brand new cartridges with a little more than a day on them.

I understand you're using the Frog @ease "SmartChlor" cartridges. The chorine they use is a slow-release type (note: it's not dichlor, and there's no CYA). The chemistry is such that there will be a constant equilibrium of about 0.5 - 1 PPM FC, and the rest is bound up as the "SmartChlor reserve". The reserve can make its appearance if you let the completed FAS test sit after it turns clear; it will slowly turn pink again over several minutes. Completely normal. Think of it like that equilibrium happening... you used up the FC in the FAS test, and in a few minutes more FC came to of reserve to replace it, until you eventually ran out of reserve. The remaining bound chlorine in the reserve (if any) will show up as CCs in the second step DPD test. At least that is my current understanding, but I'm not a chemist.

pH and hardness are important for the Frog @ease system. Presumably low hardness and low pH will dissolve the slow-release materials too quickly. I keep my pH at 7.8 and hardness at least 150 PPM. The @ease test strips are not the best for measuring pH. Get a Taylor daily chlorine/pH test kit. By the way, the OTO FC test of that kit will also slowly drift due to the SmartChlor reserve, but the pH test is at least much easier to read than strips.

I've sometimes experienced mild foaming with the @ease system, and I think it's the result of low chlorine levels. When you manually dose liquid bleach after a soak, you get that nice quick boost of chlorine to help oxidize bather waste, but that's not possible with @ease. Perhaps that's why Frog recommends periodic shocking with MPS. I noticed manually adding liquid chlorine only seems to add to the reserve instead of FC (either that or I really do have abysmally high CC levels - not possible to test which is which).

Our new tub smelled of PVC for the first couple months. Changing the water out helped, but it took nearly two months for the New Hot Tub smell to dissipate. You might try changing the water out (purge the old water with Ahh-some while you're at it), then refill and try TFP-style manual dosing (no Frog) until things are under control. You could then re-evaluate if you want something more automated like Frog or a SWCG.

Hope that helps!