Help newbie with pool

[swimmerpool]

Hi

We are building a house and would like to have pool in backyard.

We are thinking of 10' x 15' to 15' x 30' depends on what would fit in backyard and cost.

We have been told pool with spa/hot tub in pool will start at $60-70K including gunite pool package with basic stuff which includes labor . Gunite pool as many contractors don't build any thing other than gunite pools.

We are not looking for any thing fancy or features like water fall if they don't fit in our budget. Would like to keep it below $75K.

Pool would be for 6 people including guests.

I have zero knowledge and what should I ask for when requesting bid from at least 4 contractors.

Can you all please help me build a pool.

Thank You

 

[walkinpool]

Where in Texas? People could send you referrals

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Questions to ask a builder vary, but here is a start:
- What type of pool surface (plaster, pebbletech, other)
- Pump make/model, HP, speeds, etc
- Filter type & size
- Type of chlorination (liquid/manually added, salt water generator, etc)
- Number of skimmers, drains, return jets
- Cleaner options; some opt for suction/pressure cleaner, while others go robot.

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[swimmerpool]

Where in Texas? People could send you referrals

North Dallas

 

[Jimrahbe]

SP,

Unless you have been in a gunite spa, I would suggest that you try one before you buy one.. Some people love them and that is great, but a lot of people are disappointed in how comfortable they are and how they actually function. Gunite spas are the most over sold and under used items in all pool builds... They are without a doubt visually impressive. But it is an expensive option if you end up never using it.

I also suggest that you have your prospective pool builder take you around, or set up visits, to pools that they have built.. The owners are usually there and will be glad to give you the low-down on there pools.. Ask them what they like and don't like.

I would stay away for "fake" sanitizes such as mineral systems or UV systems..

I have three saltwater pools.. If I built another 100 pools, they would all be saltwater pool. A device called a Saltwater Chlorine Generator (SWCG), uses the saltwater to produce chlorine that is used to sanitize your water and keep it from turning green. Nothing works as well as chlorine.

A lot of pool builder push In-Floor Cleaning System or other water powered cleaners, such as Pressure or Suction side cleaners... Another suggestion is to move up into this Century and just use a low voltage Robot cleaner, does a much better job cleaning and you do not have to run your pump.

A Variable Speed pump is a mandatory requirement in my opinion.. You can run your pool for less than $20 bucks of electricity.

Keep in mind that if you get a spa, you will also need to get an automation system and a heater..

Just keep asking question..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

I agree with Jim, especially about the in-pool spa. They look great, with neat tile detail to compliment the pool, or water falling into the pool, lighting, etc. Awesome. But I can't imagine enjoying it much, nor paying for it. It's usually just an underwater concrete bench with a half-dozen or so jets that poke at your back. Have you ever been in a modern fiberglass spa, with the contoured seats and multiple, adjustable jets and aerators and controls and foot massagers and grape peelers and dancing girls. OK, maybe not the last two, but pre-fab spa design and niceties can never be approached by a in-pool gunite spa. If I was building from scratch, and could design anything I wanted, it'd be a nice, simple pool, about 12K gallons or so, and a separate, pre-fab fiberglass, free-standing spa, likely a ways away from the pool. Yes, it is nice to fall out of the spa into the pool once in a while, really the only redeeming thing about an in-pool spa, but I'd rather have it separate, and chock full of all that pre-fab goodness. Do you have kids? You can forget about relaxing in an in-pool spa if there are kids in the pool. To be able to let the kids (or rowdy friends) loose in the pool and have the "adult/quiet" area be the spa would, for me, far outweigh whatever there is to like about an in-pool spa.

And if you're going to get any kind of pebble finish, which I would recommend, you can forget about sitting/leaning comfortably on that surface, I don't care how much they polish it. I'd rather be kicked back on one of the reclined stations* in a fiberglass unit. Even with a bathing suit on (sorry, had to be said)...

* Did I mention, with pre-fab, there are models that have multiple stations, all slightly different in shape, so each station offers a different sitting/lounging position. One just right for any one particular guest, or for any one particular set of sore muscles. With in-pool, you pretty much get one, concrete bench. I've seen some designed with a couple benches of different heights, that's it, but not sure how much more that costs!

This is a form-over-function issue. Do you want it to look amazing, or feel amazing (a case could be made for either). Though with a little imagination, you could have a surround built for a free-standing spa that would marry it aesthetically to the pool. Conceivably, it could even be sunk-in to match the depth and location that an in-pool spa would be located.

All kinds of possibilities... go try out some spas, both concrete and pre-fab, before you make such an in-stone (literally) decision...

 

[swimmerpool]

How does water taste ....salt water pool? How can I experience it?

 

[Jimrahbe]

S,

The salt level in a saltwater pool is about what is in your tears.. Can you taste the salt in your tears? How it tastes depends on you... For me, I can taste a very slight salty taste, but only for about 10 or 15 seconds and then I don't notice it at all.. I can swim underwater with my eyes open without any issues...

It is NOT at all like going to the ocean... Saltwater pools have about 3,500 ppm of salt.. the ocean has a salt level of 35,000 ppm..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JJ_Tex]

What Jim said on the taste. We have had our pool for about 2 months and some people can taste the salt, come cant. It is very slight to those that can taste it.

As others have said, variable speed is a must. I really like our gunite spa and have used it a ton, but it is not the customized feel of a stand alone spa. Good luck.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I've said this before about buying a gunite spa... I am not against them at all.. I just think that it makes sense to know what you are buying before you plunk down the money.. Most people would not buy a new car without a test drive just because it looks cool.. My wife has a little Lexus convertible and loves it.. It looks cool.. But I have a hard time just getting in and out of it, so while my wife loves it, it would not work as my car.. Does not make the car bad, just not for me.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Couldn’t agree more about trying things out before buying. But a word of caution about a mistake I made doing just that. I was really concerned about the feel of pebble vs the plaster I was replacing. I really liked that plaster. So I drove two hours to the pebble installer’s showroom, to feel the pebble myself in his many sample pools (very nice showroom he had!). I waded in, walked around, bent over and ran my hands all over several different types of pebble and plaster and other surface types. Really spent some time doing it. I decided pebble was definitely not as nice feeling as plaster, but smooth enough to justify its advantages in longevity. I ordered the pebble. Fast forward to my first swim in my “new” pool... Yikes! This is where I went wrong. I hadn’t accounted for how tough hands and feet are!! The way a surface feels to them does not give you a sense of how a surface will feel on elbows and thighs and, sorry, a bare bum! HUGE difference. That pebble is not all that comfortable, at all. Fine for walking around on, and for general swimming and playing, but not for sitting on, or lounging on. Not for a spa, in my opinion.

The point was, whatever you’re testing for, you can’t simulate the testing. Ya gotta get in, all the way in, get wet, and REALLY test how you’ll be using it (whatever you’re testing). No shortcuts if you want no surprises!

YES to variable speed.

YES to salt. I don’t like to get pool water in my mouth, salt or fresh, so whatever the taste it’s a non-issue for me. I may have noticed a very slight salty taste on the rare occasions I’ve tasted anything, but that alone wouldn’t put me off a saltwater pool. Now, the feel of the water is another thing all together. Some claim salt feels better. I believe that to be true, which for me far outweighs the taste issue. Both sensations are slight, and neither factor in much to the real issue: the sheer convenience of a saltwater pool. Highly recommend!

Besides, ALL pools become salt water pools in short order. Unless you’re fanatic about refilling you entire pool often, using chlorine and pool acid leave salt behind in your pool. So you’re going to taste it eventually anyway. You might as well put the salt in there on purpose and run a generator to make your chlorine for you!

Like the variable pump, a chlorine generator is the way to go. Both are very tried-and-true here at TFP, you wont be sorry with either...

 

[Poolnerdgrandma]

FWIW, 6 months in and we love our gunite spa. We added a couple of jets at different levels, but the big thing is that we can get the whole family in there (7 adults plus baby) plus a few guests to hang out and watch a movie, etc. And it looks beautiful, and sounds great (waterfalls).
YMMV - we are using the spa almost every weekend so far this fall. It's 8x8, with two levels of seating so the tall and short folks are both as comfy as pebblesheen will allow.
I do have a couple of rough spots. I'm thinking about taking a very fine grit diamond wet sanding sponge in there and gently rubbing a little to see if that helps.

 

[bmoreswim]

I've linked to this article a time or two before. It's not that gunite spas can't be built to be nearly as comfortable and effective as standalone spas, but that builders haven't educated themselves on how to do it and what products to use. That said, you don't want to be the one educating your PB on this. If you were so lucky as to find a PB that was knowledgeable on spas as discussed in this article, it would take much/most of the gunite spa penalty away.

Closing the comfort gap

Since your pool will be on the smaller side, I'd prioritize pool size over features like pebble. A good quartz that lasts almost as long may buy you a bigger pool. But then also weigh deck space versus pool space. A big pool with too little deck space would be annoying.

Yes to SWG, VS pump and oversized filter.

 

[Dirk]

bmoreswim, what a great read in "Closing the comfort gap." Though, frankly, I think it supports my point of view about spas more than it supports the notion that a concrete spa can come close to pre-fab. Even if you're fortunate enough to stumble upon a builder with the skills needed, his finest work would at best only approximate a pre-fab. That tech, at least as I interpreted the article, is not at all widespread and still very much in its infancy. And as long as I'm pounding on it, there's something else to consider. If you go concrete, regardless of how bad or how well it turns out, that's pretty much going to be it, forever (unless you replace your pool's finish after 10 or 20 years, when you could reshape the spa, but not redo the plumbing much). Whether your family grows, or changes, or new owners take over, the spa is literally "in stone" no matter how well it was originally customized. With pre-fab, the possibility exists, at a relatively reasonable cost, of completely replacing the thing, with a newer, or higher-tech spa, or one that better suits the evolved or new family of users. Sell the old one, slide in the new, and voila. If your concrete spa isn't to your liking, or becomes unsatisfactory for some reason, well, you're pretty much out of luck...

swimmerpool, be sure you ask about auto-fillers, including overflow capability. Systems exist where you never have to worry about the pool's water level becoming too high or too low. There are some downsides to some of these systems, but I wouldn't want to own a pool without one. If you later decide you don't want to use them, you can shut them down. But you can't add them later.

I'm a big fan of automation, too. Be sure to study up on that, and what it can do for your pool. Even if you don't want to spring for it now, some of the choices in equipment you make now will affect how easily you can add automation later.

Pool lights. Gotta love 'em. Make sure they all point away from your house and/or where you will most be sitting by the pool at night. You don't want those things shining into your eyes or windows.

In other posts I go on and on about drains. I had mine removed. You don't need drains, though most builders put them in. While today's drains are much safer than the dangerous ones of old, no drains at all is the safest. No drains looks better, won't catch your toes, or foul a cleaner. Ditch 'em.

When planning the build, think about where future utilities will be needed. Put in lots of pipes through which you can run power, speaker wire, gas, water, ethernet, intercom, cable, etc, etc. It's so easy to run that stuff before the concrete deck goes down, and near impossible after. Put in some empty conduit to run wires you don't yet even realize you're going to want. Same goes for drip irritation. If you think you need three drip lines, but in six (or 10!). That stuff is cheap.

The over-arching theme here is, plan ahead for things you can't possibly know to plan for!! But seriously, needs change, families change, owners change. Do what you can now to allow for some of these changes, because once the concrete goes down, you could be into 5-figures to make changes later...

 

[Dirk]

Speaking of which...

Drainage!! Not long yesterday after I wrote about laying down pipes and conduit before pouring your decking, I found myself grumbling, on my hands and knees, digging a small trench on both sides of a concrete walkway in order to shove a 5' x 3" piece of ABS pipe under it! The job involved digging and water-jetting, and sledge-hammering and mud, and a lot of swearing!! I have a small planting bed next to my house, surrounded by concrete, into which drains one of my rain gutters. It doesn't take much of a rain for that bed to fill with water and overflow onto the concrete walkway, and then the mulch floats out of the bed onto the walkway and all over parts below. Every time. So I'm rerouting the downspout under the walkway, through the ABS pipe, and out the other side, and adding a drain in the bed, too, so any water that collects in the bed will now flow under the sidewalk instead of over it.

And this nasty chore was even possible because the walkway is only 4' wide. Imaging trying to solve a problem like that under a 10 or 20' wide stretch of deck!! Point was... I wasn't kidding about trying to plan ahead as much as you can, and really think about what might need to go where, so you can take care of it before the concrete goes down. Fixing this drainage problem is going to cost me about a day of hard labor (I have more to do this afternoon, including more trenching and all the plumbing). It would have been an easy 20-minute job had my pool's builder thought about drainage before he installed that walkway!

Now, he did lay drain pipes under other areas of my pool's deck, so it's not like he didn't know to do it. He just overlooked that one spot. So even if you've got a builder who knows his stuff, ya gotta keep an eye on him, on everything, and try to think of things he might not have considered... Things he forgets will not bother him, he'll be long gone after you hand him his last check. It's you that will have to live with the missed opportunities...

 

[swimmerpool]

Thank you to forum members for their invaluable input and comments. This is the bid. Please suggest if I need to make any changes:


GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

SWIMMING POOL:

Pool Type: Shallow Pool, Spa and Water Features

Overall Size: 13’ x 48.5’

Pool Surface Area: 450 s.f. Square Feet

Pool Perimeter: 123 Lineal Feet

Pool Depth: 3.5’ to 5’ to 4’

Average Depth: 4.2’

Pool Capacity: 12,000 Gallons

Piers: 8 Helicals –see options - Will cost extra

SPA:

Spa size: 7’ x 7’ inside

Spa Area: 49 Square Feet

Spa Perimeter: 28 Lineal Feet

Spa Depth: 3.5 Feet

Spa Elevation: 12” raised from pool

Spa Capacity: 500 Gallons

MATERIAL SELECTIONS:

Pool Coping: Travertine – 18” wide

Ceramic Tile: 6” at pool perimeter – standard tile at pool

1” glass tile at spa wall

Decking Area: 300 s.f. Rpck Salt Colored Concrete

Drainage Line: 4” underground as needed

Interior Finish: Colored quartz

EQUIPMENT:

Circulation Pump: Pentair Intelliflow VS + SVRS

Filter: Diatomaceous Earth 60 s.f. w/ multiport valve

Sanitizer: In-Line Chlorinator and Salt System

Automatic Cleaner: Pentair Racer w/ pump

Control Valves: 2” x 2.5” Never Lube

Pool Light: 2- Globrite LED Color

Spa Light: 1- Globrite LED Color

Gas Heater: 400K BTU Electronic Ignition

Air Blower: 1.5 hp Silencer

W/F Pump: 1.5 hp Whisperflo

Laminars: 3- Color Laminars

Maintenance: Telescopic Pole, Brush, Net and Test Kit



ELECTRICAL:

Wiring: All proposed equipment

Bonding/Grounding: #8 bare copper wire

GFCI: At equipment for pool lights

Controls: Easytouch electronic controller w/ screen logic

Freeze Protection: On all circulation pumps

PLUMBING:

Suction Outlets: Skimmers- 2” line

Dual Main Drains – 2” line

Return Inlets: 4 wall returns

Backwash Line: To grade – 2”
Fill Line: ¾” automatic

Overflow Line: 2” gravity to lower end of yard

Spa Drains: Channel Drain – 2.5” line

Spa Jets: 6 at bench – 2” line

Spa Overflow: 2” line

W/F lines: 2” suction, 1.5” returns

Gas Line: From Meter to Heater



SPECIAL NOTES:

The following items are not included as part of this contract:

• Electric, water and gas at equipment pad by owner
• Fencing and Safety as per city code
• Landscaping and Irrigation

GUARANTEES:

5 YEAR ON STRUCTURE: PB warrants that the pool structure will remain structurally sound for a period of five (5) years from the date of installation (plaster) The term structurally sound means that the swimming pool is capable of retaining water, and in the event of failure to do so within the stated period, PB will repair the structure so that it will retain water, without charge to the owner, upon written notification of such defect.

THREE YEAR ON EQUIPMENT:Filter, pump, electronic controller and heater carry a 3-year warranty from the manufacturer.

ONE YEAR ON ALL OTHERS: All other features including coping, tile, plaster, plumbing lines, electrical, and accessories, are guaranteed against defects in workmanship and materials for twelve (12) months.

LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS: The above-mentioned warranties are to insure proper installation, workmanship and function of the swimming pool. In order to keep this warranty in effect, owner must continue routine pool operations and maintenance in accordance with the Pool Owner’s Manuals and Manufacturer’s Instructions. BP is not liable for any defects or damage caused by improper pool maintenance, negligence or misuse.


PRICE: PRICE BREAKDOWN:

Permits and Plans $ 1,000.00
Pool Structure & Equipment $ 54,000.00
Spa Structure and Equipment $ 11,000.00
Color Laminars and Equipment $ 4,000.00
Electronic Controller $ 2,500.00
Pool Decking and Drainage $ 4,500.00
Plaster care $ 500.00
Total Value of Improvements $ 77,500.00

Options: Plaster Upgrade - Pebble $ 2,000.00 _____
Helical Piers(8 recommended) $ 4,000.00 _____

 

[Jimrahbe]

SP,

It appears to me your pool builder is stuck in the 60"s, based upon his equipment choices..

I love IntelliFlo pumps except the one that has the SVRS option.. these do not work and are old as dirt.. They are trying to sell you a load of Bull Stuff.. Do not let them tell you that the SVRS option is required.. It is not, as you will have dual drains...

I can say this because I let my pool builder talk me into the SVRS version of the IntelliFlo pump.. The worst decision that I have ever made, pool wise.

I have said this many times before... My pump will go into "entrapment mode" and shut off any time there is the slightest surge in pump pressure. If my next door neighbor just passes gas, the pump will shut off...

I would go with any other IntelliFlo as they are great pumps.. I suggest the 011018 or the 011028.

If you have a SWCG, there is zero reasons to have an in-line chlorinator (Tab feeder).

I would go with a large cartridge filter over a DE filter in a heart beat. I have two rent house pools with DE filters and when they bite the dust, I will replace them with cartridge filters.. No multiport valve to fail or leak later on. Simple is almost always better.

Getting a water powered cleaner and booster pump is like using an old black rotary dial land line vs. using a cell phone.. I suggest a robot cleaner that does not need the pump running to clean your pool,

I have an EasyTouch with ScreenLogic and love it... But.. if I were to build a pool today I would use today's technology and not something from the 80's.. I would install the new Pentair IntelliCenter which is much better than the old EasyTouch/ScreenLogic and only costs about $200 bucks more. Make sure any automation system you get has the built-in SWCG power supply... Your Salt cell needs to be at least 2 x the volume of your pool.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Ha, it's OK that you ignored virtually all of my suggestions (drains, spa, utility lines, auto-fill, etc). You didn't hurt my feelings. ? But do yourself a favor and give due consideration to Jim's (pumps, tab feeder, cartridge filter, cleaning system, automation).

I prefer a suction-side system over pressure-side (yours will be pressure), and don't think I'd like a robot (for various reasons, but to be fair I've never owned one). But the suction-side or robot debate aside, absolutely don't let them put in a system that requires a booster pump. Those systems are very old-school.

I have EasyTouch with ScreenLogic, so I've also never tried IntelliCenter, but I can now advise (with some authority): pleeeeeeeze ask your builder for the automation controller's model number BEFORE he installs it. Run it by Jim. If you're going with Pentair (which I personally use and like) aaaaabbbbbsooluuuuutely do not let your builder sell you a PSL4. Anything with the letter "L" in it. Technically stands for "Lite" but really stands for "Lousy." You will for sure regret the purchase of a PSL4 (or PL4), as I constantly do. And, as Jim has suggested, be sure your controller has the built-in SWCG power supply (I'm seconding that motion). As not getting that was another thing I did wrong.

Keep posting, keep asking. That's the best thing you can be doing. Along with the PSL4, my next biggest mistake was not doing that, and instead relying on my builder to "advise" me. Big mistake. They have their own motivations for their suggestions that don't always align with your best interest. I've come to learn from my time hear at TFP, when a TFP expert (especially a TFP Mod) "suggests" something, they're being polite about. Me, not so much! ;-) They're really giving you an incredibly valuable wealth of info based on years of experience helping others fix what went wrong with their build... You have the opportunity to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of pool construction by posting the way you are. Kudos.

Best of luck. Happy Holidays!!

 

[Dirk]

Oops, sorry, once last "dig" at your plan. Others here can better explain, as I've forgotten most of it since I finally figured out how to control my pool's pH... but pH is a big deal for a concrete/plaster pool. You have to keep it in check, for a slew of reasons. And something you should learn about now better than later, is that water dropping into a pool affects the water's pH. Things like spa waterfalls and laminars could possibly impact your pool's pH in undesirable ways. So much so, in fact, that some pool owners with those features can't, or just stop, using some of them so that they don't have to constantly fight with their pH level. Just sayin'... this is something builders don't explain to you (or even know about), and then you pay all that money for cool features that you end up not using.

Hopefully someone here can chime in more about the science of what I'm trying to warn you about... (or search the forum for info)...

PS. I use a Pentair IntellipH to manage my pH. I can recommend that system. It has some issues, but it works well for me.

OK, I'll leave you alone now!!

 

[swimmerpool]

Thanks for the replies. PB gave his bid and recommendations as I posted above. I will bring up with him suggestions from the forum.

Please do let me know what other things I need to change, so I can discuss with him.

Thanks.