Help automating my pool

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timjet

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Sep 4, 2015
94
Leesburg, FL
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
My previous pool had a Pentair easy touch single body control system with a IC 20 SWG and wired indoor controller. I now have a spa with the pool and no automation other than the simple pump timer. The pool has a Hayward gas heater. I don't foresee using the gas heater except occasionally for the spa. The heater has a manual gas valve just before the gas pipe enters the heater. Currently pool water by-passes the heater. Water to the heater is controlled by 2 3 way valves.
To enter spa mode, 2 separate 3 way valves must be moved.
The pool also has a vacuum sweep and bottom pool jets for additional cleaning.

Since I will only on occasion will use the heater to heat the spa (never the pool) I would have to turn 4 valves, 2 to allow water to the heater and 2 to enter spa mode, open the gas valve to the heater and then push a button to start the heater. So to use the heater in spa mode would require a LOT of automation, which I don't want to pay for.

  • I want to immediately convert to a SWG system.
  • In the near future I plan on adding a solar heating system. I would like that to be controlled by automation with thermostats.
  • I would like to have an indoor controller, either wired or wireless if the wireless is reliable. My previous pool had a wired indoor controller and worked flawlessly.
The indoor controller will be located next to the switch for the pool light so I don't need that to be controlled by anything.

How should I proceed??
 
Oh Jim! (@Jimrahbe). He knows this stuff. I'm confident Jim will steer you to a Pentair IntelliCenter setup. You can buy them bundled with an SWG, and two actuators (that automate valves). Even a lowly EasyTouch PS4 can do all of what you need, including solar, for somewhat less (but the IntelliCenter is Pentair's newer offering). The IntelliCenter does have some growing pains it's working through, but is the more robust system and can be upgraded easily. The ET is very tried and true, if that makes a difference to you. The IntelliCenter is firmware upgradeable, so eventually Pentair will straighten out its bugs, but Pentair seems to take its time in such matters.

Both the IntelliCenter and the ET can be controlled via phone app. Not sure about the indoor control for the IntelliCenter. I have an indoor control panel for my ET and I use it a lot. I have the wired version. There is a wireless version available, too. I find the indoor control panel more convenient for most things than I do the phone app. The ET requires an additional component, called ScreenLogic, to give you the app and computer control function. That functionality is built in to the IntelliCenter.

What did I leave out, Jim?
 
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Oh, regarding the heater. Pentair automation can control your heater, just about any brand, I think. Typically, you leave the gas valve open all the time, and the controller will turn the heater on and off for you. You don't generally shut off the gas valve to appliances (think: oven, water heater, HVAC, etc). So I don't think you have to worry about automating that valve.
 
One more, either controller I mentioned can also control the pool light along with everything else, so that can be automated, and scheduled, too. You mentioned the light switch is already convenient, but if the pool light is wired to the pool controller, then you'd have access to it from your phone, etc. And you could then have it turn on and off automatically, or just off automatically, or turn off after x hours after you manually turn it on, etc. If you ever convert the light to a color-changing LED, then the controller would also switch the colors for you.
 
Thanks Jim, I don't see the need to interface with my PC or phone so don't really need that. And though I can automate the gas heater I really don't think due to the cost of gas that I will use it much. I'm guessing I'll heat the spa maybe 3-4 times a year. That would require a walk out to the heater to adjust the valves, something I can do for the occasional use it will get.
 
If you could start to heat the spa while you were still 30 mins away from home and have it ready for you by the time you got there, maybe you'd use it more! That's what you can expect from full automation. No matter. You know what you need. Make a simple list of exactly what you want your system to be able to do, and Jim can give you the part number of the bundle that will cover your list. Whatever that system ends up being will more than likely include all the other capabilities I described, so it's not like you can save some money by eliminating heater control, or even phone control. All the newer system include all those goodies, so you're going to have the capability whether you use it or not, at no extra charge.

Where the dollar difference comes in is in how many things you want to control, and on what schedule, which determines how many relays the controller must have, which determines the model you need, which determines the cost.

By the way, I'm Dirk, not Jim. I was asking Jim to come take a look at your thread as he is our resident Pentair expert and knows a lot about the capabilities of the different models and bundles. So far we need to control:

- solar heating system
- gas heating system
- two heater bypass valves
- two spa valves
- one solar valve
- wired or wireless indoor remote (wall mounted)
- pool light (optional)

Did I leave anything out? Any desire to be able to control garden lighting from your indoor panel? Anything that uses an electrical circuit can be controlled with your pool's automation controller (bistro lights? fountain pump? etc).

Please enhance your signature with brands and model numbers. Especially for the pump and the heater. Something like my signature will be helpful in determining the best controller for your need.
 
Tim,

I went down the same automation route you're going right after the pool was built. Started with Jandy RS system that worked fine for a couple years and then I took a massive lightning strike that caused $5K in damage. By that time Intellicenter had just come out. Still had some bugs but I replaced with it anyway since its the best there is based on experts here and my personal opinion also. I did the installation of both myself. If I were you I'd get the bundle for the salt conversion. I had already just installed a Circupool swg so I stayed with that. If you're going to install yourself you may want to consider a third party swg since the warranty is way better. This is important for the cell warranty. Warranty changes frequently so just check first. I've now had my Intellicenter a couple years and it's fantastic! The modular design makes upgrades easy and the control features make optimizing my solar plus gas heat very easy with features like "solar preferred" where the solar runs when there's enough heat from it and Intellicenter switches on gas heat when needed. I used Polytec Pools for my bundle and I'd use them again. They were great to deal with. My bundle came with the actuators needed for the pool/spa function. Pentair also provided great support plus I got "the voice of experience" from @Jimrahbe plus @MyAZPool and others here that made the DIY project very easy. Total cost of the job was about $2K DIY with the iPS8 bundle that gives me plenty of spare capacity for future add-ons. Be aware DIY significantly cuts your warranty from any major brand. My rational for DIY was that electronics last forever if they work a week or two and at DIY VS dealer installed cost I could buy an entire spare unit if needed. But for the swg cell they do fail more often in the first couple of years so if it's DIY install it makes sense to go 3rd party with full warranty. With 3rd party swg you do lose ability to change % power remotely but I've not had to change this yet and get plenty adequate control with run-time adjustments which you can do with any brand automation.

I hope this helps!

Chris

***EDIT*** If you're in a lightning prone area like me consider a Type 1 plus Type 2 surge protection. I learned this the hard way.
 
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Sorry Dirk, I wasn't paying attention.
And Chris, I will be installing this myself as I did at my previous home. Could you expand on your advice to get a 3rd party SWG. On my previous 10,000 gal pool I went through 3 Pentair IntelliChlor IC 20's in the 12 years I owned that pool. I would adjust the percentage depending on the time of year. I learned over time to just leave it at 90% and adjust the pool pump on time to account for the cooler winter.

Pentair's website does a poor job of explaining their EasyTouch and IntelliCenter controls. From what I can figure out, the IntelliCenter is about $2600. For that you get a more graphic display, and WiFi connectivity with cell phone app control. That includes an IC 20 and 2 motorized valves. The EasyTouch PSL with a IC20 and wired remote but with no motorized valves is about $1400.

Does this sound about right.
 
timjet said:
Sorry Dirk, I wasn't paying attention.
Click to expand...
No worries. I learned all that from Jim, so close enough. Hear that @Jimrahbe? I'm being mistaken for you now! (He'll love that!)

I really like to be able to control my IC40 from my app or computer. I use that all the time. And the ET reports any IC errors via ScreenLogic. But if you'd never use those features, then a third-party SWG might be the better way to go.

TFP recommends you double your water volume to determine the size for your SWG. An IC20 is too small for your pool. You should use an IC40 or equivalent size from another brand. Roughly speaking, the 20 in IC20 = 20,000 gallons. The IC20 would provide enough FC for a 20K gal pool. But to get that done you'd need to run the IC20 for 24 hours a day. Conversely, an IC40 would only need to run half the time, as it can produce twice the FC in the same amount of time as an IC20. For a 15K pool, and in such a warm climate, you'd probably have to run your pump near 24/7. Which is fine if you like to do that. You get the gist.

DO NOT, DO NOT, (yep, said it twice) purchase an ET with an "L" in its model number. The "L" stands for "Lite" and those models are severely handicapped by Pentair so that they can offer an "entry level," low cost automation solution. In the list of all the things I've purchased for my pool, I still consider buying a PSL4 my single worst decision (technically, the pool guy made that decision and I didn't know any better at the time). The "L" version limits how many things you can run and how many schedules you can make (only four timer schedules are allowed, including egg timers. I could easily use a dozen, and I don't have a spa). Awful. Really inadequate for even a simple pool. No way for a pool that has all the valves and features yours does.

So you'll need to redo your math a bit. To better compare apples-to-apples, you'd need to add the cost of ScreenLogic to the cost of an ET to compare to an IntelliCenter. I know you said you're not going to use the app feature. You'd know that best, of course. If you ever did used it, I think you'd like it. No matter. I don't have an IntelliCenter but I want one. I think its ability to be updated, both for capability and for firmware, make it the far superior model, and very much worth the cost difference. The screen is also a nice feature. My ET is in desparate need of an upgrade but there is no path for me to do that (not without using a third-party to hack my firmware). And ScreenLogic hasn't been updated for many years. I suspect it never will be, since Pentair's go-to model is their flagship IntelliCenter offerings.

Did you find out if the IntelliCenter has any indoor control panel options? I really do like my ET's indoor control panel. I use mine at least once a day.
 
Oh, one more consideration (there's always one more). I have the Pentair IntelliPh which automates my muriatic acid dosing. I love having both automatic chlorine and acid dosing. Really reduces my pool maintenance regime. Even after three years, my pool still needs regular MA dosing, and I expect it always will. I would not want a pool without both FC and pH dosing gizmos. There are other acid dosing solutions, but the IC and IpH combo work together in a unique way that can't be matched by other brands. Point being, if you think you'd ever be interested in automating acid dosing, I highly recommend the IC/IpH combo. The IntellipH requires the presence of a Pentair IC, it is not a stand-alone solution. So if you go third-party SWG, you'd have to also go third-party acid dosing.
 

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timjet said:
Sorry Dirk, I wasn't paying attention.
And Chris, I will be installing this myself as I did at my previous home. Could you expand on your advice to get a 3rd party SWG. On my previous 10,000 gal pool I went through 3 Pentair IntelliChlor IC 20's in the 12 years I owned that pool. I would adjust the percentage depending on the time of year. I learned over time to just leave it at 90% and adjust the pool pump on time to account for the cooler winter.

Pentair's website does a poor job of explaining their EasyTouch and IntelliCenter controls. From what I can figure out, the IntelliCenter is about $2600. For that you get a more graphic display, and WiFi connectivity with cell phone app control. That includes an IC 20 and 2 motorized valves. The EasyTouch PSL with a IC20 and wired remote but with no motorized valves is about $1400.

Does this sound about right.
Click to expand...
The major brands severely limit warranties unless you use an authorized installer and/or seller. Jandy lowers it to zero. The others limit to 60 days last time I checked. You may be able to qualify if you use a licensed contractor in some cases. Read the warranty carefully since this does change. For electronics like the board in your controller or the wifi bridge the pretty much work for a decade or two if they work a week. But cells do go out from all brands within a couple years. Not too many but it does happen. And if this happens out of warranty the fix is expensive. 3rd party suppliers have much more generous warranty for DIY, There's no penalty for most of the popular brands such as Circupool. I think mine was 5 years pro-rated. If it were not for the DIY warranty issue I'd go Pentair. If you want to control % power remotely and don't mind then warranty risk then Pentair is the right answer for you. At the end of the day personal preferences drive the right answer for most pool decisions.

I also suggest you consider 2x the rated capacity. Two reasons for this are it gives you more flexibility on run time as the cell ages and the incremental capacity is generally cheaper.

Your price for the Intellicenter with the included swg cell sounds about right for me. Mine was about $2K bur did not include swg. SWG has also incurred a significant cost increase from all manufacturers because some of the catalyst component metals have increased a lot in the past year. Not sure about the ET system. When I checked it seemed closer but definitely cheaper when compared apples to apples it was a couple hundred less.

Chris
 
Pentair warranties are maddening. They're a little vague about what qualifies for a professional installation. Read it. It can be just about anybody with some sort of credential. You might be able to juggle that a bit to your advantage.

Also, the IntelliChlors carry a 2 year warranty and Pentair doesn't insist on Pro install for an IC. It's never been clear to me if that means just replacing the cell, or if they count the entire installation, including the transformer. But if you buy the right controller, it comes with the transformer. And if you DIY install the controller, you limit the warranty on the controller (and so too the transformer). But if you just plug in the IC cell, like you would if you were to replace it 5 years from now, does that also reduce the warranty? Or do you still get the promised 2 year warranty? See what I'm getting at? There might be some wiggle room when it comes to DIYing the controller/transformer and then plugging in the IC.

If you buy just the controller/transfomer, DIY install that, then later buy the IC (as not part of the original bundle), and then just plug in the IC, does that make a difference?!?

Like I said, maddening.
 
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Thanks guys for your help. So to recap, Pentair's IntelliCenter is a $800 to $1000 higher cost than a comparable EasyTouch and the IC gives me WiFi connectivity, the ability to upgrade the software, and a touch screen. Having used and installed an EasyTouch at my former pool and find that it does everything I want I can't justify the extra cost of the IC.
Please help me understand the two different ET systems.
The ET 4 and ET 8 have the exact same specs when I look at the description except the ET 8 has 8 high voltage circuits vs 4 for the ET4. Both have Valve Actuators Std/Max 2/4. Can someone explain those 2 specs to me.
 
timjet said:
Thanks guys for your help. So to recap, Pentair's IntelliCenter is a $800 to $1000 higher cost than a comparable EasyTouch and the IC gives me WiFi connectivity, the ability to upgrade the software, and a touch screen. Having used and installed an EasyTouch at my former pool and find that it does everything I want I can't justify the extra cost of the IC.
Please help me understand the two different ET systems.
The ET 4 and ET 8 have the exact same specs when I look at the description except the ET 8 has 8 high voltage circuits vs 4 for the ET4. Both have Valve Actuators Std/Max 2/4. Can someone explain those 2 specs to me.
Click to expand...
I don't know all the ins and outs of all the models. The primary difference is the number of things you can control. Which is why I was helping you define exactly what you want to control, to determine if four was enough, or eight. And then there is scheduling. My PSL4 has a limit of only four schedules. I don't know what the scheduling limits are for the "non L" models, but you should be clear on that before you buy. Jim (our resident ET expert) knows that stuff, I think, but I can't seem to entice him to this thread. Perhaps the owner's manual of each model can help you with that, or Pentair Tech support. The point is: you first need to determine how many things you want to control, including any that you may want to someday control, and then determine how many schedules you'll need (on-off times for each controlled device + any egg timers you might want to have). Those two spec's should determine which model you need.

And sorry, I can't answer your specific question about what "Valve Actuators Std/Max 2/4" means. It sounds like you can only control four actuators, but I'm not sure. You're going to need five, by my count: two for spa, two for heater bypass, and one for solar. I know it's possible to operate a heater bypass with only one actuator, so that could bring your total down to four. But you'd need to replumb your bypass a bit, by replacing one of the bypass valves with a check valve.

The IntelliCenter is pushed a bit here because when you add the cost of ScreenLogic to the cost of an ET, you get very close to the cost of the IntelliCenter. So why not get the newer model. But if you are quite certain that you're not interested in away-from-home control, or phone/pad/computer control, then your cost-difference math is sound. Nothing wrong with an ET otherwise. They are time tested!
 
Last edited:
4/8 channel option is a personal preference decision. 4 channel gives you room for expansion but not a lot. 1 is used for the filter pump and one for each item that's high voltage controlled such as a booster or LED lights... you quickly run out when you consider fountains, landscape lighting, 3rd party salt systems, robot and other would-likes. 8 gives you plenty of room for most installations and is a minimum for me. IC min size is 5 and is easily expansible. Also you can schedule 99 items instead of 12. But I agree for people whose preferences are not likely to require more automation the ET is a better choice from cost perspective. But I'd go with the ET 8 not 4. Cost of actuators outside of the bundle used to be a lot more. If that's still true you may want a few more in your bundle. The do last a long time though. Mine are going on 7 years and still going strong in direct Florida sun.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
 
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OK, with you guys recommendation I will get the EasyTouch 8. Dirk, I think you pretty much understand what I want.
Initially it will operate the
  • single speed motor
  • The SWG
  • Switch between Pool mode and Spa mode. 2 motorized 3 way valves required.
  • Since it has the capability I may connect the pool and spa light
In the future I want it to control the
  • Solar heat system. 1 motorized 3 way valve required.
  • Possibility the Hayward gas heater. No valves required if I leave the valves to the water heater open otherwise 2 motorized 3 way valves or as Dirk suggested, one motorized valve and 1 check valve.
So to sum up my setup would require eventually 5 motorized valves or 4 motorized valves and a check valve.

I don't know if the ET 8 can handle 5 motorized valves.

Do you guys recommend Polytec pools to buy from?
 
Yes, great outfit. When we build our next house I'll go there for pool control system... Intellicenter of course!
 

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