Heater Problem

[JPMorgan]

Recently the message "Rollout Switch Open" came up on the panel of our heater. The pool company replaced the switch, but the next day the same message appeared (and pool is not heating). The pool company tells us the heater needs to be replaced or..... we can get an HVAC company to come take a look at it if we want.

Is this a problem that could require a new heater or.... do they just not know what to do? What is the likely cause? Will most HVAC companies work on pool heaters and know how to repair this? Incidentally, we have a bit of an air leak problem also. Not super serious, but we are getting air in the filters repeatedly. Filter psi is running about 15 and usually runs about 20. Could this have anything to do with the heater problem? Pool company tells me they are unrelated.

 

[1poolman1]

Recently the message "Rollout Switch Open" came up on the panel of our heater. The pool company replaced the switch, but the next day the same message appeared (and pool is not heating). The pool company tells us the heater needs to be replaced or..... we can get an HVAC company to come take a look at it if we want.

Is this a problem that could require a new heater or.... do they just not know what to do? What is the likely cause? Will most HVAC companies work on pool heaters and know how to repair this? Incidentally, we have a bit of an air leak problem also. Not super serious, but we are getting air in the filters repeatedly. Filter psi is running about 15 and usually runs about 20. Could this have anything to do with the heater problem? Pool comnpany tells me they are unrelated.

Replacing a roll out switch (actually a one-and-done fuse) takes all of 15 minutes. This is not a job for an HVAC tech who has probably never seen the inside of a pool heater. It is a DIY to replace, open cabinet, one screw and two wires. Generics on Amazon for $10-$15 work just fine.

Doesn't address the real issue, why is the flame coming out of the firebox? Are there bushes, or a tree, that has grown high near the heater? Has a new, higher fence/enclosure been installed? Is the heater near a tall wall? Has it been particularly windy lately while the heater is running? Is there debris on a burner near the switch, usually the left side of the burner tray?

Roll out is usually caused by a down-draft that can be the result of any of the items mentioned. If they are the cause, a new heater won't help on its own, but a high-wind stack may be needed, regardless of the old or new.

Amazon.com

 

[JPMorgan]

Are there bushes, or a tree, that has grown high near the heater? Has a new, higher fence/enclosure been installed? Is the heater near a tall wall? Has it been particularly windy lately while the heater is running? Is there debris on a burner near the switch, usually the left side of the burner tray?

The heater is indoors, so it seems only the last option is a possibility. I have not attempted the fix myself, but we have a guy coming out to take a look and give us a second opinion this week. If the problem can be fixed with cleaning the burner or something relatively simple like that, then I think we will be looking for a new pool company since their "solution" was a new heater. I'll post when I have an update. Based on the SN I discovered that the heater is 10 years old... probably installed sometime in 2013. What is the life expectancy of a pool heater?

 

[1poolman1]

The heater is indoors, so it seems only the last option is a possibility. I have not attempted the fix myself, but we have a guy coming out to take a look and give us a second opinion this week. If the problem can be fixed with cleaning the burner or something relatively simple like that, then I think we will be looking for a new pool company since their "solution" was a new heater. I'll post when I have an update. Based on the SN I discovered that the heater is 10 years old... probably installed sometime in 2013. What is the life expectancy of a pool heater?

I've seen indoor heaters have their exhaust stacks compromised, rusted internally, with the rust falling on and blocking the heat exchanger. That can cause flame roll-out.
Life expectancy is based on how the heater is used. Mine is over 20 years old but used only sparingly, maybe twice a year. Is this a commercial property that has the heater in use daily? If so, ten years is a good life. They quite literally cook themselves to death. Only saw it in print once in an article from Teledyne Laars (heaters eventually bought by Jandy/Fluidra) that stated they only expect their heaters to last 5 years in continuous use. When I was actively working on commercial properties I found that to be true in my area. Seldom are commercial (mostly apartment) pools heated here, but they all have spas. Commercial-grade, ASME-rated, heaters lasted about that long on every spa I had installed them.

 

[JPMorgan]

Is the heater near a tall wall?

What would be the issue with a tall wall behind the heater? There is a tall wall behind the heater, but there is also a hole in that wall.

We have a guy coming out tomorrow to take a look at it and give us a second opinion.... hopefully, he will be figuring out the issue and doing a repair. If so, I think it's "so long" to our current pool company (for recommending a new heater).

Will post the results of the heater inspection tomorrow.

 

[ajw22]

What model heater are we discussing?

 

[1poolman1]

What would be the issue with a tall wall behind the heater? There is a tall wall behind the heater, but there is also a hole in that wall.

We have a guy coming out tomorrow to take a look at it and give us a second opinion.... hopefully, he will be figuring out the issue and doing a repair. If so, I think it's "so long" to our current pool company (for recommending a new heater).

Will post the results of the heater inspection tomorrow.

Downdraft will force the flame out of the firebox if there is enough wind. Atmospheric heaters (no blower) are susceptible to that. Even an indoor installation with an improperly installed outdoor stack and flue can have the problem.

If the vent hood on an outdoor stack is within 10' of the roof peak, it must be at least 2' higher that the peak, that's in the instructions. Some heaters will work for years with an improper installation, and then they won't. When the outdoor portion becomes very tall additional support (wires, usually) are required and most of the time, because no one likes the look of a stack that high, they do it wrong. It catches up sooner or later.

As mentioned earlier, even if installed correctly, the flue will deteriorate from the inside and rust can call on the heat exchanger blocking flue gasses from escaping and force flame out of the firebox.

 

[JPMorgan]

What model heater are we discussing?

Raypak C-R336A-EN-C ASME

 

[JPMorgan]

Got a guy coming next week who says he can take the heater apart and try to clean the heat exchanger. Will let us know once he has it apart if it is salvageable.

 

[JPMorgan]

Well..... the pool company (that gave us a second opinion) never followed up, so we had an HVAC guy out to take a look and he said the heat exchanger is full of soot and can't be cleaned.... so time for a new heater. He had some concerns about the venting and suggested that we look into a fan-assisted(?) heater. (Not sure if that is the right terminology.) Does anyone know if Raypak makes such a heater? We are replacing a Model C-R336A. The HVAC guy was not fond of Raypaks and suggested a Hayward. Any recommendations from anyone out there on the best heater to replace the Raypak?

 

[DavidArmenB]

I could be wrong but I think all the new heaters have forced air intake blowers. I know my natural gas Hayward H250 does.

 

[Bill1974]

If the heat exchanger is plugged up it can usually be cleaned or replaced. Replacement might be close to the new unit with labor and all the challenges of taking apart the heater. If it's not leaking spending a little time to clean out the HE is probably the cheapest option.

If yours is sooty that is a sign it is not burning efficiently, probably from the blocked fresh air. Soot is just carbon from incomplete fuel burning.

I did this on my Raypak house boiler. I did have to off most of the sheet metal enclosure, but it was pretty easy. A shop vac, compressed air and a pick are all that is really needed.
Before

After (not perfect but much better):

 

[ajw22]

.He had some concerns about the venting and suggested that we look into a fan-assisted(?) heater. (Not sure if that is the right terminology.) Does anyone know if Raypak makes such a heater?

He is talking about a forced draft heater design that has an air blower versus the natural draft design of your Raypak that simply relies on the hot air rising through the heater.

Raypak has the Avia heater which is forced draft. Pentair has the MasterTemp and Max-E-Therm and Hayward has their H-Series digital heater.

Whichever one you get it is important to review the installation manual for the proper clearances and venting.

 

[1poolman1]

RayPak CR337A. AVIA

 

[JPMorgan]

The pool company said that we would need to obtain a permit from the state if the heater is not an exact swap and that could take 6 weeks and cost $4,800 for the drawings and permits (what a racket). We are considering some other modifications to our equipment in the near future so he suggested putting in the same heater for now, then adding the "draft inducer" later when we are ready to do the other modifications (which will also require drawings and permits). Does that make sense?

 

[JPMorgan]

I did this on my Raypak house boiler. I did have to off most of the sheet metal enclosure, but it was pretty easy. A shop vac, compressed air and a pick are all that is really needed.

For some reason I could not see the photos you posted.

 

[JPMorgan]

Replacement might be close to the new unit with labor and all the challenges of taking apart the heater.

Quote for new heater is $8,200 installed. I assume putting in a new heat exchanger (if it can't be cleaned) would be a lot cheaper than that, right?

 

[Bill1974]

A new heat exchanger is ~$1300 and a couple of o-rings ~$30. But if it isn't leaking, no need to replace parts.

The design is pretty similar to my 40+ year old boiler. Pretty easy to remove the flue, and the top few pieces of sheet metal to get access to the heat exchanger.

Surprised the service tech would not do this and then adjust the burner to make sure it burns clean. I would try getting a someone who services gas boilers to clean it and set it to burn cleanly. Even if they charged a $1000 you are way ahead. This is a probably a couple hour job for a competent tech unless there isn't space to work or the unit is a pile of rust.

Does your pool heater look like it has seen better days and is a safety hazard?

 

[1poolman1]

Well..... the pool company (that gave us a second opinion) never followed up, so we had an HVAC guy out to take a look and he said the heat exchanger is full of soot and can't be cleaned.... so time for a new heater. He had some concerns about the venting and suggested that we look into a fan-assisted(?) heater. (Not sure if that is the right terminology.) Does anyone know if Raypak makes such a heater? We are replacing a Model C-R336A. The HVAC guy was not fond of Raypaks and suggested a Hayward. Any recommendations from anyone out there on the best heater to replace the Raypak?

Its a bit of work, but I've never seen a heat exchanger that can't be cleared of soot.

 

[JPMorgan]

The guy who said he could clean it finally responded and is scheduled to come out tomorrow to do that. If he finds that the heat exchanger is toast, then we will install a new heater. Will update tomorrow.