Hardscaping with pavers

[FuturePoolOwner]

Planning to place Cambridge pavers for vinyl pool. Got 2 different quotes.

Contractor #1
-Will wait a month after back fill. Then dig out around the pool and place fabric compact while adding crushed stone for pool patio.

Contractor #2 (10% more than contractor #1)
-will start immediately after pool is backfilled and will do 2-3 inch concrete base with rebar around the pool patio on which pavers will rest. For the walkways he will do crushed stone as base.

Not sure who to pick. My only concern with #2 is if I ever need to get under the patio to fix the pipes or some pool issue removing the concrete would be difficult. They both had 10+ years in industry with good reviews

 

[PoolStored]

Planning to place Cambridge pavers for vinyl pool. Got 2 different quotes.

Contractor #1
-Will wait a month after back fill. Then dig out around the pool and place fabric compact while adding crushed stone for pool patio.

Contractor #2 (10% more than contractor #1)
-will start immediately after pool is backfilled and will do 2-3 inch concrete base with rebar around the pool patio on which pavers will rest. For the walkways he will do crushed stone as base.

Not sure who to pick. My only concern with #2 is if I ever need to get under the patio to fix the pipes or some pool issue removing the concrete would be difficult. They both had 10+ years in industry with good reviews

oooh, vinyl liner and pavers...that a good one for @Newdude

 

[Newdude]

Hands down you want #2. The traditional method will settle and need releveling in 10 to 15 years no matter how well of a job they do. It's also very labor intensive and that part costs as much or more than the stones, allowing you to have a concrete patio poured instead for the same amount of money. (Give or take).






They used the Bobcat to put these pallets exactly where they were going. The slab laughed at about 5k lbs driving around on it (pallet and bobcat).

 

[dleonard1122]

The most important part is that any backfilling needs to be done with stone, not dirt. Even if you wait a month (or a year) after backfilling with dirt it will settle and you won't be happy with the result. Even if you're pouring a concrete pad as your sub base for the pavers, if the ground beneath the concrete starts to settle you might run into issues.

You mention that contractor #2 says they'll use a concrete base. Do you know how wide of a pad they plan on pouring? You could go NewDude's way and pour the entire base in concrete and that will certainly work. What I did was poured the a concrete collar around the top lip to support the coping (6" thick x 12" wide). Behind the concrete collar I did compacted crushed stone. There's nothing wrong with doing the entire sub base in concrete, but it's excessive to me imo.

 

[BMerrill]

Contractor #1
-Will wait a month after back fill. Then dig out around the pool and place fabric compact while adding crushed stone for pool patio.

My pavers are installed in a similar manor to this method.
Pool backfill was small angular stone, which is considered self compacting. This area extended 30" max from the pool (Fiberglass). After 2 months a 36" concrete locking collar with rebar was poured. The coping was set in adhesive to the fiberglass and abutting pavers were set in Type "S" mortar. For the remaining patio, the undisturbed soil was excavated to 6" below the top of the concrete collar. Geotextile fabric was laid down on the bare earth followed by a 5" sub-base layer of Crush n run, which is an aggregate mix of stone, gravel and dust used in street construction, it was leveled and plate tamped (thickness of the stone will be dependent of the soil support value). Next was the sand/concrete sand setting base, then the pavers.


Contractor #2 (10% more than contractor #1)
-will start immediately after pool is backfilled and will do 2-3 inch concrete base with rebar around the pool patio on which pavers will rest. For the walkways he will do crushed stone as base.

If the pool is backfilled with angular stone, and the concrete is poured on the stone or on undisturbed earth this method can work as well. Would prefer the 4000 psi 3-4" of concrete. Where rebar is installed, the edge of the concrete to the edge of the rebar concrete will need to be a minimum of 3 times the rebar diameter. The rebar grid should be connected to the bonding wire at a minimum of 4 places with UL listed underground connectors.

 

[JamesW]

I would wait a month for either method.

The backfill needs time to settle and you don't want to try to force compact it as that can damage the walls or force them out of alignment.

For a concrete pool, you could probably compact the backfill, but not for vinyl or fiberglass.

 

[FuturePoolOwner]

@Newdude, what did the backfill your pool with. Alll the pool companies here in the NE just backfill with the dirt the excavated. Also what happens when water seeps through the pavers and onto the concrete? Someone I spoke to said the concrete should have holes in it to allow water to drain through otherwise might get heaving due to freeze thaw cycle.

Contractor #2 said the concrete base will extend the entire length of my pavers so roughly around 6-14 feet around the entire pool. He is using 4000 psi of concrete. I will as him to do a thicker layer, and let the dirt settle for as long as possible.

I met with contractor #1 today and he said he would do 3 feet of concrete base 3-4 inches thick around the pool with no rebar. But he will be compacting the soil underneath it. He also mentioned that he doesn't use for the fabric between the crushed stone and dirt. Says its extra cost and he could add if I wanted to but for all his projects he typically does not do this.

 

[JamesW]

with no rebar.

I highly recommend rebar or wire mesh for bonding purposes.

 

[JamesW]

Some pools shock people getting in or out of the pool and almost always the concrete decking has no rebar or wire mesh.

 

[Newdude]

@Newdude, what did the backfill your pool with. Alll the pool companies here in the NE just backfill with the dirt the excavated

Same here. I did my best to remove the chunks of grass that would breakdown and I borrowed a friend's tractor to get rid of the unearthed sand so that only dirt was left. My original plan was to rent a sod cutter and have no grass to remove but they called and started on a whim so I didn't get the chance.

Also what happens when water seeps through the pavers and onto the concrete?

We did our best to pitch it away from the house and the pool. Once the slab was in I road tested it with the hose and called the cement guy back to fix the low spots. I spray painted the slab so there was no question when he showed up what was going on.



It was a big slab and there was only so much we could do and the remaining water was finding its way behind the liner track so I had him cement the track in place so *if* any water made it through the polymeric sand around the pavers, it had to go over the liner and into the pool. This was probably overkill, but whatever we gotta do to sleep at night, amirite ?

Someone I spoke to said the concrete should have holes in it to allow water to drain through otherwise might get heaving due to freeze thaw cycle.

The safety cover punched 34 (?) holes which should achieve this as an added bonus. But most of the little water to make it through will drain away. It was really only the 33X40 slab to the house that was as issue. The walkway around the pool was easy to pitch correctly.

 

[FuturePoolOwner]

Question about bullnose coping 6" x 12" blocks. Should their be a gap between the bullnose coping blocks and what is used to fill in-between them? Some grout?

This is my neighbors pool and I noticed his coping had gaps filled with white caulk/grout. When I look at other pools online. Some have no gaps. And I ran into this thread which says the coping should be completely flush. Is this a stylistic thing? Small Gaps Between Bullnose Coping Pavers

 

[BMerrill]

Question about bullnose coping 6" x 12" blocks. Should their be a gap between the bullnose coping blocks and what is used to fill in-between them? Some grout?

Both methods work. With a non-freeform pool abutting coping is the preferred; but in a curved coping around the spa, it will be difficult to cut each piece to fit perfectly, so using grout or caulking would be the preferred method.

 

[Newdude]

Both methods work.

+1. I had one of each. My old pool had the stones mortared to the shell with the stones spaced and grouted. Pretty much every grout/gap cracked and left me with the same hairline crack I have now, with the stones abutted (sp?) tight and no grout. These stones are held to the shell with construction adhesive. There is a gap under them with no mortar in place, but it's likely not enough to cause damage if any trapped water under there freezes. Time will tell, I reckon. The no grout method is far more appealing visually IMO.

 

[FuturePoolOwner]

+1. I had one of each. My old pool had the stones mortared to the shell with the stones spaced and grouted. Pretty much every grout/gap cracked and left me with the same hairline crack I have now, with the stones abutted (sp?) tight and no grout. These stones are held to the shell with construction adhesive. There is a gap under them with no mortar in place, but it's likely not enough to cause damage if any trapped water under there freezes. Time will tell, I reckon. The no grout method is far more appealing visually IMO.


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Just met with paver guy again. He said the concrete base will be 3-4 inches with rebar on top of compacted soil with crushed stone.

He said he prefers coping to have about quarter inch to half inch gap and filled in-between. He also could do it the other way with no gap but said it's not perfect and there will be little gaps. With his preferred method he can control the width of gaps and give it a cleaner look but it's up to me.

Also said everything including concrete base will be pitched from pool. The only thing that won't be pitched is the coping. He will make that level.

Between the coping and pavers he will leave a small gap and fill it with some sort of sponge material and put polymeric sand on top.

 

[Newdude]

He said he prefers coping to have about quarter inch to half inch gap and filled in-between. He also could do it the other way with no gap but said it's not perfect and there will be little gaps.

Oh yeah. The grouted pavers were more uniform and the abutted ones have a slight variation. Some are dead tight and some have a hairline gap. But in the end once the grout all cracked, that had 25 varying gaps too. It didn't hurt anything, and grinding it all out would have been a project, so it stayed cracked.

 

[FuturePoolOwner]

Oh yeah. The grouted pavers were more uniform and the abutted ones have a slight variation. Some are dead tight and some have a hairline gap. But in the end once the grout all cracked, that had 25 varying gaps too. It didn't hurt anything, and grinding it all out would have been a project, so it stayed cracked.

What brand and color pavers did you use? Is that Cambridge limestone quarry with coal borders?

 

[Newdude]

What brand and color pavers did you use? Is that Cambridge limestone quarry with coal borders?

You nailed it. Bravo. It was in the brochure as a driveway but we liked it.

We absolutely love it.

 

[FuturePoolOwner]

You nailed it. Bravo. It was in the brochure as a driveway but we liked it.

We absolutely love it.

Nice! I'm looking at limestone quarry blue for pavers and also coal for coping. Just worried that coal may be absorb too much heat as the coping when getting out. How does it feel under full sun?

 

[Newdude]

I'm looking at limestone quarry blue for pavers and also coal for coping

That one is REAL nice. And it wasn't all that much more expensive either, maybe $1 a foot. But after an over budget pool and THEN an 1800 sq ft patio that wasnt planned...... yeah. We went with the 'cheaper one'

Just worried that coal may be absorb too much heat as the coping when getting out. How does it feel under full sun?

I'm in full sun close to you and they were fine. My old gravel grey colored ones were much hotter, which still wasn't terrible. I'd sit in the corner and use the heat on my back. Anywho, YMMV in a different yard, as always, but they should be fine.

*edit for full disclosure. It was installed the end of Aug and we didn't get the full summer. But it was mid 90s at the end of the summer so we had a couple weeks of hot sun on it. If it winds up being too warm, you can splash water on it to cool it off, or sit on a towel on the side.