Hard dig complication Arizona

[Redsurprise]

Hi TFP community. Needing advice and feedback as my new pool project has hit its first problem. While I would have loved to have gone the Owner Builder route, I work outside of the home and I am not home enough to manage all that and stay on top of subs. So I went the pool builder route choosing a company that I thought was a reputable company (Dolphin). Despite being all but guaranteed by both the sales agent and project manager that my build wouldn’t be a “hard dig” based on other pools they have put in my neighborhood and down my exact block, the PB told me today that the sub they hired for excavation hit rock 3 feet down with the test hole that was dug. I know Phoenix area can have caliche, but just surprised after the assurances that it wouldn’t be a hard dig that they are telling me this. The PB swears they don’t make any extra off of this being a hard dog.

My pool is supposed to be 28x10 feet with a 5 foot sun shelf on one end then two steps down with the deepest part in middle of pool at 5 or 5.5 feet. The other end is 3 feet. With them hitting rock only at 3feet down, how much do people estimate this will cost? My yard is small and there is only 5 or 6 feet clearance on the side where they can come through so we are limited to a smaller bobcat to dig. I am already paying a 3k premium for the small excavator bobcat they have to use so paying more for hard dig equipment time is frustrating.

I am about ready to just cancel this pool. I was already a little over what I had hoped to spend given the landscaping I need done once pool is finished and can’t really afford an extra $2,000 to $8,000 that they are quoting me as extra cost for the hard dig. They are getting bids from 3 people for this.

Has anyone here ever cancelled a pool contract.? I am waiting to hear back from PB on what I could get back if I cancel. I paid $2000 deposit before they submitted for engineering plans and permit . Then paid 5500 before they started digging. Not sure how much of that 7500 I can get back.

How hard is it to hire my own excavator? Will I save money by doing that? Is a pool permit transferable to another company?

Any feedback/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Photos of test hole attached .

 

[Mdragger88]

Perhaps there are other things in the build that you could nix to make up for this expense?
Show us what all is listed in the contract.

 

[Redsurprise]

Perhaps there are other things in the build that you could nix to make up for this expense?
Show us what all is listed in the contract.

Here is what is listed in contract. Only thing not on the bid is the ONMI PL system and the S340 salt cell that they were replacing the salt cell in the proposal for an additional $1500.

I guess I could forget the salt system and automation and not do travertine, but then I almost don’t want the pool anymore if I have to throw out those items.

I regret choosing this pool builder .

 

[Newdude]

I regret choosing this pool builder .

C'mon now, be fair. They've worked in your neighborhood with success. That's the end of their story. Your yard is a new story that isn't their fault.

The only thing somebody else may have said was 'we've never worked in this area so we can't say'. Maybe they also did 10 pools on the block with no issues.

Having a yard that allowed better equipment access isn't on the builder either. You did nothing wrong, but it is what it is.

I say pay it and move on. 10 years or maybe even 5 years from now, you won't recognize that money is gone, but you'll be enjoying the pool.

 

[Redsurprise]

Do pool builders ever lie about it being a hard dig? I just don’t want to get scammed by the pool builder or the sub contractor and I do not have an extra 5-8k to spend on excavation. I may have to give up my dream of a pool until I have more money to spend.

I have had a bad feeling about this pool builder since singing the contract and them assuring me it wouldn’t be a hard dig all whole forcing me sign this hard dig possibility acknowledgement they do with all pools in Arizona.

I saw a home health patient recently who told me that her pool builder several years ago said the same thing and she told them to use a “bigger bucket” on the machine and it solved the issue and it didn’t end up being a true hard dig.

I am hoping for feed-back from others who have run into hard dig situations and what happened in their cases. How much did it cost? How are things like this charged? By the hour? If don’t cancel the contract, can I have the excavation done on a day I am able to be present to record the excavation to see if it really is a hard dig and requiring 3-5x more time/work to get the hole dug?

Can I transfer my permit to another pool builder? Can I simply fill in the test hole myself if I scrap the pool all together? Can I pay a sub myself for excavation? How do I go about finding a pool excavator who will do it correctly according to plans?

 

[Redsurprise]

They've worked in your neighborhood with success.

They say they have, but I don’t know if that is actually true. I haven’t spoken to anyone who has used this company in my neighborhood and given my patient’s experience with a different pool builder/excavator who tried to scam her on this same thing it just makes me suspicious.

 

[proavia]

They say they have, but I don’t know if that is actually true. I haven’t spoken to anyone who has used this company in my neighborhood and given my patient’s experience with a different pool builder/excavator who tried to scam her on this same thing it just makes me suspicious.

Ask your PB for addresses of pools in your neighborhood that they did and then go knocking on doors.
Actually probably should have done this before you signed a contract - but it is what it is.
These other homeowners might have insight as you move thru your build process.

 

[reggiehammond]

I don't know that I agree that one test hole is enough to show a big problem. Maybe they hit "a rock", not rock.

But to cancel - read your contract. If there's a way out, it'll be written there. But you didn't write the contract, so the way out is usually more expensive than you will like.

I'm with @Newdude - work with the builder, be honest that money is tight, offer water/snacks/shade and figure it out. I'd hate for you to spend $10k and end up with nothing.

 

[Mdragger88]

About the items listed-
I don’t see anything crazy on there.
I was thinking there might be some stupid expensive stuff like ozone & uv systems that you could nix.
The only pricey optional thing that I see is the sheer descent - most people don’t really run their water features very often. The aeration drives up the ph & in your area you’ll likely be trying all you can to keep that down in a freshly plastered pool.
The travertine patio is a large expense but I understand not wanting to compromise there.
About the builder/
They don’t know what they don’t know- they don’t have xray vision so they have to guard themselves. If everything was automatically included they would probably go bankrupt when they hit caliche in too many backyards. Since they are subbing things out you need to ask them how the subs charge for this situation. Some charge by the foot and some by the hour etc. there’s not a universal way. Each company is different.
Perhaps you could inquire if they have a way of finding out like rodding or drilling in multiple areas to get an idea of whats below before demolishing your backyard.
Nothing about that contract/quote screams scam.
In fact the total & many of the line items are lower than I had expected for the pool you’re getting. They also are very specific about your equipment instead of just saying 3hp pump & sticking you with whatever they got on sale 3 years ago. It all seems properly sized & reasonable.
You’ll need to think about your budget & what is affordable for you but that is also something that should have been considered before signing on the line.
Construction projects almost always go over the bid for some reason so planning for an extra 10% is generally recommended to have some breathing room.
Hopefully talking with some of their actual customers will ease your concerns.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I don’t believe there is any professional definition of a “hard dig”. Demand that they define what that is and have the excavator there to give evidence.

Right now all I see is one hole in the ground and some scrapings. And one person’s declaration of a hard dig. They need to prove it.

You can fight them on it and demand that they show proof of how much time they set aside for the dig and how many loads in a dump truck that is planned. All of that is detailed in their request to the excavator sub. Excavation can be a bit of game as the PB will underestimate what is needed to low ball a contract price and then they’ll BS with nonsense about the dig to get more money out of you.

Demand proof and don’t back down. Be a PITA. It’s your house and your money. If they want to walk away from the contact, fine. But you shouldn’t let them walk all over you.

AND SIGN NOTHING EVER WITHOUT A LAWYER LOOKING AT IT.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Here’s my assessment of what they’re saying -

Your yard is hard to get into and they can’t use a standard 2-ton excavator to do the dig. The excavator sub showed up with a bobcat and realized that it was going to take days to dig out your yard with lots of manual labor. So he called up the PB and said, “Eff this stupid job! I ain’t doing it …” and the PB is scrambling to get him to stay on the job and offering more money. And the way he gets that money is by telling you it’s “hard dig” and you need to pay more.

Unless there is a giant boulder down there OR your lot was used by the home builder to dump all the excavation and construction waste and then graded over when the neighborhood was built, the PB needs to show proof of what he’s taking about.

Stand firm. When you show them you have the stomach to fight, they’ll crumble like a wet paper bag.

 

[Schwimmbad]

My hole was dug two days ago in Buckeye AZ. I didn't have a hard dig, but for what it's worth I can give some of my very limited experience. I did OB and inquired about hard digs before the contract with all my excavators being considered. There is a range of approaches. Some don't even dig test holes.

The one I went with said:
"For a hard dig we do not handle it per hour. It all depends on your soil and how deep down they hit hard. The range of the hard dig cost per foot down is $1,000.00 - $1,500.00. We have excavated a lot of pools in Buckeye and there are three types of dig we have encountered
• One being, normal soil conditions no hard dig.
• Two being, very hard rock causing our hammer more trouble breaking since we are dealing with very hard soil conditions.
• Three being, hard but not too hard for our hammer to break easily
When we start your excavation, our excavators start with a test hole to determine the type of soil we are dealing with. If there is hard soil, we will provide a bid for the hard dig, and you can choose to continue or not. If you wish not to continue, we will instruct our crew to pull off and charge you a pull off fee of $450.00. I cannot give you a certain cost or time for the hard dig because we do not know what type of soil we will be dealing with until the day of the excavation."

Excavator #2 said:
"We charge hard dig per foot of hard dig to be completed. We do a test hole and determine the feet needed down to reach depth. For example we can hit rock at 3 ft then we would determine how many feet needed and price that."

Excavator #3 said:
"If we encounter hard dig or abnormal soils conditions, a bid will be given, which will be an additional charge. If you’d like to get other bids, we will pull off the job. A $350 pull off fee will be charged if you decide not to accept the additional bid."

Excavator #4 said:
"hard dig would be extra if needed - bid would be provided at time of hard dig encounter"

You can see the excavator I went with provided the most detailed response. Most of the others just treated it like boilerplate language. Some don't even say they dig a test hole. They could have dug half the pool before they hit rock and then hit you with an an additional charge.

When I had the pre-site meet with the excavator I found out he did a lot of the digs for the pool builder who has a partnership with the home builder in my development. He said in his experience (19 years) you never know until you dig. He can dig for a row of homes and all are fine except one. It can be the opposite where you hit a lot of rock for many homes and some don't have a problem. It can skip all around. He did say there was one area near us that is very close to the white tank mountains (really tucked in close) that it seems most digs hit rock. Even than he said not all do.

On the day of excavation (they used what they call a mini-1) they did two test digs. They dug down at both the shallow and deep end down to depth for probably a 6 foot length at each end to determine if it was going to be a hard dig. Here is a picture of their test digs.


Like others have said, I'd suggest trying to work it out with your builder. You have a lot of money already out the door so it is in your best interest to work through it and make some tough decisions. You will get years and years of enjoyment out of the pool. It is too bad you hit rock. It's unfortunate they way it was discussed they made it seem like there was zero chance.

If you really want to talk to other excavators send me a PM. I've got a list I can send you. It would be a mess if you want to try to change an excavator but maybe it will give you a bit of comfort you aren't (hopefully) getting taken. I doubt you will save anything if you wanted to go with anyone else, but you can at least talk to others.

 

[Redsurprise]

My hole was dug two days ago in Buckeye AZ. I didn't have a hard dig, but for what it's worth I can give some of my very limited experience. I did OB and inquired about hard digs before the contract with all my excavators being considered. There is a range of approaches. Some don't even dig test holes.

The one I went with said:
"For a hard dig we do not handle it per hour. It all depends on your soil and how deep down they hit hard. The range of the hard dig cost per foot down is $1,000.00 - $1,500.00. We have excavated a lot of pools in Buckeye and there are three types of dig we have encountered
• One being, normal soil conditions no hard dig.
• Two being, very hard rock causing our hammer more trouble breaking since we are dealing with very hard soil conditions.
• Three being, hard but not too hard for our hammer to break easily
When we start your excavation, our excavators start with a test hole to determine the type of soil we are dealing with. If there is hard soil, we will provide a bid for the hard dig, and you can choose to continue or not. If you wish not to continue, we will instruct our crew to pull off and charge you a pull off fee of $450.00. I cannot give you a certain cost or time for the hard dig because we do not know what type of soil we will be dealing with until the day of the excavation."

Excavator #2 said:
"We charge hard dig per foot of hard dig to be completed. We do a test hole and determine the feet needed down to reach depth. For example we can hit rock at 3 ft then we would determine how many feet needed and price that."

Excavator #3 said:
"If we encounter hard dig or abnormal soils conditions, a bid will be given, which will be an additional charge. If you’d like to get other bids, we will pull off the job. A $350 pull off fee will be charged if you decide not to accept the additional bid."

Excavator #4 said:
"hard dig would be extra if needed - bid would be provided at time of hard dig encounter"

You can see the excavator I went with provided the most detailed response. Most of the others just treated it like boilerplate language. Some don't even say they dig a test hole. They could have dug half the pool before they hit rock and then hit you with an an additional charge.

When I had the pre-site meet with the excavator I found out he did a lot of the digs for the pool builder who has a partnership with the home builder in my development. He said in his experience (19 years) you never know until you dig. He can dig for a row of homes and all are fine except one. It can be the opposite where you hit a lot of rock for many homes and some don't have a problem. It can skip all around. He did say there was one area near us that is very close to the white tank mountains (really tucked in close) that it seems most digs hit rock. Even than he said not all do.

On the day of excavation (they used what they call a mini-1) they did two test digs. They dug down at both the shallow and deep end down to depth for probably a 6 foot length at each end to determine if it was going to be a hard dig. Here is a picture of their test digs.
View attachment 528419

Like others have said, I'd suggest trying to work it out with your builder. You have a lot of money already out the door so it is in your best interest to work through it and make some tough decisions. You will get years and years of enjoyment out of the pool. It is too bad you hit rock. It's unfortunate they way it was discussed they made it seem like there was zero chance.

If you really want to talk to other excavators send me a PM. I've got a list I can send you. It would be a mess if you want to try to change an excavator but maybe it will give you a bit of comfort you aren't (hopefully) getting taken. I doubt you will save anything if you wanted to go with anyone else, but you can at least talk to others.

So the pool builder came back to me with 2 bids for my hard dig and was quite rude to me and talking over me during our phone conversation. I tried to ask questions like how is it being charged and how do they know how much of it is a hard dig and he refused to give me any info and just the pricing the 2 companies gave for the job and said no matter how long it takes 2 hours or 3 days, the bids are the bids. One bid (the original excavator who dug the hole and stopped) was 2500 and another one was 3200 maybe. The part of this whole process that make me mad and suspicious is that the pool builder gave me no notice of when the excavator would be there so I could arrange to be there to monitor the digging or be given proof that it is a hard dig or detailed explanation as to why my particular dig was a hard dig. I just came home one day to my side gate having been taken off and a big hole and pile of dirt in the back yard. They only options they are giving me are A) accept one of the hard dig bids they got me 2) cancel my contract, but then I am out $6300 3) hire my own excavator and they will refund money to me for my own excavation (I need to find it if it is the whole amount listed in my pool quote for that or not).

I am inclined to get my own excavator. I just don’t trust my pool builder anymore based on how rude the guy I talked to today was instead of being more transparent with this situation, but I don’t know how I go about getting my own excavator and if it will save me money. I wish there was a way to get a second opinion to make sure I’m not being cheated. I feel the same way in this situation as I do at the Toyota dealer in the service department.

 

[proavia]

Did you speak with the owner of the pool company, a supervisor or a salesman?

They should have tried digging in more than one small spot.

 

[Mdragger88]

Silver lining is that $2500 & $3200 are much less than $8000.
Also that the bids are firm - that takes some of the mystery out about some kind of ever increasing bottomless amount.
I would go with the one that did the test dig barring another option.

 

[RoyR]

Im still trying to understand why that is considered a “hard“ dig….looks like dirt to me???

 

[Redsurprise]

Silver lining is that $2500 & $3200 are much less than $8000.
Also that the bids are firm - that takes some of the mystery out about some kind of ever increasing bottomless amount.
I would go with the one that did the test dig barring another option.

The bids aren’t necessarily 109% firm. There is an additional clause that if there is more than 2 yards of overbreak I have to pay an additional $350 per yard. Not sure how often there is overbreak.

 

[Redsurprise]

Im still trying to understand why that is considered a “hard“ dig….looks like dirt to me???

A friend of mine has a buddy in the industry who does shocrete for pools. He put me in touch with an industry colleague who does excavations. This guy told me looking at my photos and talking to me “That's all dirt. Yeah the soils looks more compacted but not enough to make it a hard dig.” And “For the most part Surprise area is not hard dig soil. Especially since a majority of the land was farmlands. There could be a possibility that they encountered an area with a rock. Doesn’t make it a hard dig. They can start at a different part of the pool area to properly be sure.”

My friend’s pool industry contact also told me that he felt it was a big red flag that they came out for this test dig unannounced.

Anyways, I need to decide if I accept the bid from the cheapest excavator for $2500 or see if I can find my own excavator, but if I go that route, pool builder will only give me a credit of “$2,519 ($3,669 - $1,150 for 2 yards of over-break that will be necessary at shotcrete & original excavator pull-off fee).

Can anyone explain what this overbreak is?

Think I will be able to find a different excavator willing to give me a different bid or if it is worth it to pursue this route?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

“Overbreak” is simply the difference between the as-designed layout of the pool and what the excavator has to remove in order to get a stable profile. They give estimates based on the actual design layout and then leave the overbreak portion as a variable on dig day in case they hit something that requires more digging. The know they have to over-dig a little bit to accommodate the rebar and shotcrete but sometimes they have to over-dig more if they hit loose sand, etc.

Usually the excavator pulls out the vast majority of the material and then guys with spade shovels will do the final shaping by hand. Sometimes the excavating process causes damage to the compaction of the surrounding soil and the guys have to shovel out more material than planned to get to undisturbed/compacted earth.

There’s also “overbreak” in tunneling excavation through hard rock which is the size of the zone past the actual excavation that is damaged rock. When making tunnels in mountains, overbreak is a critical parameter as it deals with the physical stability of the tunnel itself and it’s resistance to cave in.

 

[Redsurprise]

So I got an alternative bid for my own excavation, an excavator another member of this forum used and with whom had a good experience . This other excavator did point out an area that looked like caliche but he said often he can just use water to soften that area and avoid using what he called “the ripper” to get through it. If that doesn’t work, I am only charged $1000 extra. Since my PB will only give me a $2500 credit if I hire my own excavator (they withhold 1150 of the original excavation charge for a $450 pull off to go the original excavator and 700 for 2 yards of overbreak), going this route with my own excavator will only save me $400 or $1400 depending on whether he needs to use that extra tool to get through the caliche.

When I asked the excavator i brought out about the overbreak piece, he said they don’t necessarily have 2 yards of overbreak. He didn’t think I would have that much. When I went back to Dolphin about this, they said that if there wasn’t overbreak or less than the 2 yards, they would credit me some of that overbreak charge they built into the cost but they warned me that

“the 3rd party excavator will need to adhere to digging the pool to our standards. Any/all dig corrections that may be needed will be the responsible of that same excavator in which Dolphin will not be financially responsible for.

Lastly, if the excavator over digs the pool in any capacity, you would be financially responsible for any additional shotcrete needed when the pool is shot.”

I felt good about the excavator I had come out, but am fearful that somehow my pool builder will to get that extra money out of me somewhere else.

How often do excavators over dig?

Any suggestions on what I should do would be appreciated .