hair stylist with questions

[kbose]

I hope this is allowed & in the right space for it.

I am a hair stylist... I am currently putting together info to record videos for my clients. One video specifically on pools.... I googled 1 question I had that I didn't know the answer & ended up here. Since being here, I've gone down the rabbit hole. I've been reading a lot of forums here and I now have more questions. I tend to do a lot of research & I love knowing all the things before relaying the info to my clients. Knowing all the things also helps me trouble shoot my client's hair & scalp problems. Can yalls help me? Yalls seem super informative & nice. I've already shared this website on my fb page because dang... the info here is amazeballs!!

Things that I know: copper causes green hair in blonde hair, not chlorine. The end.

Any and all info is most welcome. I do have some questions I'd like answered and I'd love to read any info yalls have even if it isn't a question I have. Also, I know zero things about pools..... I've learned some things here but also, still ignorant of pool things.... and I have a lot of questions.... Some of these may seem simple or dumb, I really don't know anything about pools. I just swim in them.

1) How does calcium in pools affect hair? Or does it? What happens if the calcium level in a pool is too high or too low?

2) Can you measure CC? Is there a safe amount of CC? Or is this one of those things where if your pool has that chlorine smell, CC is there and it doesnt matter how much is in it type of thing? How does CC affect skin and hair? Dryness?

3) ARE SALT POOLS REALLY CHLORINATED POOLS JUST BY DIFFERENT MEANS? I did read a thing about salt pools here... and decided that I have lots of questions & need to sign up to ask the questions.

4) Why/when would someone choose a salt pool over a traditional chlorine pool? What are pros and cons of both salt pools & chlorine pools?
Is one better than the other? Or does it all come down to pool care and making sure all the things are balanced in one's pool? Is one better for skin & hair?

5) What causes one's hair to become dry, brittle, stiff, etc after swimming in a pool? Is it a specific something or an unbalanced pool?

6) Calcium Hardness... does this affect skin and hair if too low or too high? What is this for in a pool?

That's all I have for now... as yalls answer I will probably have more questions.... any and all info is so much appreciated! Thank you so much! And thank you for furthering my education!
Much love, gratitude, & respect to you all,
-Kari

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! I'll do my best to answer your questions.
1. As far as I know calcium levels don't have a negative impact on skin and hair, but I would like to refer this question to one of our chemistry experts. @JoyfulNoise maybe you have some info to share?
2. Yes there is a test to measure CC. Any FAS/DPD based test kit will have a test to measure CC. Test strips will not accurately measure CC if they measure it at all. Excess CC, such as >1.0 ppm can irritate skin, eyes, and sensitive mucus membranes. I would expect it would also be drying to one's hair.
3. Yes, salt pools are chlorinated pools. Pools that use saltwater chlorine generators (SWG) are chlorinated pools. The SWG is a mini chlorine factory. It takes salt water and runs current through it that generates chlorine. Pools with SWGs can run with lower levels of chlorine since they can be set to produce a specific amount of chlorine and will disperse it over a set amount of time, where as traditionally chlorinated pools rely on a heavier dose to last longer between additions of chlorine.
4. Cost. Most SWGs cost about $800-2500 depending on the size and installation may be extra. Some people can't afford that much at one time, or they may have bought into the myth that saltwater will destroy their pool. The upside to an SWG is not having to buy and haul jugs of chlorine. The down side is the upfront cost, but it will last 8-10 years if well maintained. If you add up the cost of liquid chlorine for 8-10 years vs the cost of an SWG it all evens out. All pools contain salt. Salt is a byproduct of chlorine as it breaks down. When chlorine is depleted it releases salt and water back into the pool. Salt builds up in the water over time, so if you have not needed to change your pool water in 10 years and you are a steady chlorine user you may have 2000ppm of salt in your pool without ever adding a single grain yourself.
Some people add salt to their water for the water softening effects. In areas where you have very hard water, water softeners are very popular. People report salt water is less irritating to their eyes and less drying to their skin and hair. So I guess referring to question 1 high levels of calcium may leave you with dry skin and hair.
5. I would say high CCs and an unbalanced pool would be the biggest culprit. You want to make sure the pH is between 7.0 and 8.0. Outside those parameters pH levels can be irritating and are known to damage pools over time. Also I have noticed that when my kids were young and didn't throughoughly rinse their hair or wash it often enough their hair would dry stiff and be hard to comb. Everyone should at least rinse their hair with fresh water after swimming. Mild shampoo and light conditioner for everyday use is best for frequent swimmers.
6. Calcium is necessary for plaster finished pools. If the calcium levels in a plaster pool drop below 250 over time the water will pull calcium out of the plaster, leaving it weak and crumbly and shortens the life of the plaster. Too much calcium (over 450 ppm) and high pH causes calcium to fall out of solution and deposit on the pool walls as rough patches or nodules that can scrape or cut skin and look terrible. Calcium deposits may also occur in vinyl liner pools. Calcium deposits can clog a sand filter, reduce the effectiveness of a cartridge filter, shorten the life of an SWG, and clog up a heater or fountain.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[kimkats]

Hi and welcome to TFP. I am also going to call in @Newdude as he is husband to a blond and two blond girls so may have some insight on hair and pools.

 

[kbose]

Hi, welcome to TFP! I'll do my best to answer your questions.
1. As far as I know calcium levels don't have a negative impact on skin and hair, but I would like to refer this question to one of our chemistry experts. @JoyfulNoise maybe you have some info to share?
2. Yes there is a test to measure CC. Any FAS/DPD based test kit will have a test to measure CC. Test strips will not accurately measure CC if they measure it at all. Excess CC, such as >1.0 ppm can irritate skin, eyes, and sensitive mucus membranes. I would expect it would also be drying to one's hair.
3. Yes, salt pools are chlorinated pools. Pools that use saltwater chlorine generators (SWG) are chlorinated pools. The SWG is a mini chlorine factory. It takes salt water and runs current through it that generates chlorine. Pools with SWGs can run with lower levels of chlorine since they can be set to produce a specific amount of chlorine and will disperse it over a set amount of time, where as traditionally chlorinated pools rely on a heavier dose to last longer between additions of chlorine.
4. Cost. Most SWGs cost about $800-2500 depending on the size and installation may be extra. Some people can't afford that much at one time, or they may have bought into the myth that saltwater will destroy their pool. The upside to an SWG is not having to buy and haul jugs of chlorine. The down side is the upfront cost, but it will last 8-10 years if well maintained. If you add up the cost of liquid chlorine for 8-10 years vs the cost of an SWG it all evens out. All pools contain salt. Salt is a byproduct of chlorine as it breaks down. When chlorine is depleted it releases salt and water back into the pool. Salt builds up in the water over time, so if you have not needed to change your pool water in 10 years and you are a steady chlorine user you may have 2000ppm of salt in your pool without ever adding a single grain yourself.
Some people add salt to their water for the water softening effects. In areas where you have very hard water, water softeners are very popular. People report salt water is less irritating to their eyes and less drying to their skin and hair. So I guess referring to question 1 high levels of calcium may leave you with dry skin and hair.
5. I would say high CCs and an unbalanced pool would be the biggest culprit. You want to make sure the pH is between 7.0 and 8.0. Outside those parameters pH levels can be irritating and are known to damage pools over time. Also I have noticed that when my kids were young and didn't throughoughly rinse their hair or wash it often enough their hair would dry stiff and be hard to comb. Everyone should at least rinse their hair with fresh water after swimming. Mild shampoo and light conditioner for everyday use is best for frequent swimmers.
6. Calcium is necessary for plaster finished pools. If the calcium levels in a plaster pool drop below 250 over time the water will pull calcium out of the plaster, leaving it weak and crumbly and shortens the life of the plaster. Too much calcium (over 450 ppm) and high pH causes calcium to fall out of solution and deposit on the pool walls as rough patches or nodules that can scrape or cut skin and look terrible. Calcium deposits may also occur in vinyl liner pools. Calcium deposits can clog a sand filter, reduce the effectiveness of a cartridge filter, shorten the life of an SWG, and clog up a heater or fountain.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Thank you so much! This does help!
The higher the pH, the more damage the hair becomes. If your kids weren't rinsing thoroughly, the water being more alkaline than hair would keep the cuticle raised, causing the hair to become dry, brittle, tangley, etc.


Does chlorine effect hair and skin at all? Or is chlorine the scapegoat?

I did not know that salt pools also have chlorine. That is mind blowing. I am going to do some more research on calcium & it's effects on hair. There is a study out there that questions if calcium (im pretty sure it's calcium) & other minerals can react with the chemicals in hair color & cause the green hair effect that isn't caused by high levels of copper. It's just a question that I wish they would study more.

So, as long as everything is balanced then everything should be good? Should one switch to a salt pool if they have sensitive skin? Or is it more of a personal preference?

Thank you so much!

 

[Newdude]

Hey kbose and Welcome !!!

Enough copper in the water (surpisingly not very much at all) from all of those 'ionizer' or 'mineral' systems will turn blonde hair green. I saw it in person many years back when we used to frequent a friend's house that had a copper system. Any chlorox type chemicals sold at WalMarts (etc) with either blue or extra blue in the title contain copper as well as several algecides. It doesn't take long to get to the high threshold when using the pool store type methods heavy on shocks and algecides. It stains the pool surface too, but that's less of a concern when a client is in your chair.

My wife with thick hair swore off chlorine pools altogether after building a salt pool. You are entirely correct that the only difference between the two pools is how chlorine is added, and you can feel the difference in skin and hair. Skin feels silkier and hair gets less knotty. There are still some knots that need brushing, but not nearly as many and we stopped needing the special swim shampoos like when we were in chlorine dosed pools all the time. Two of my 3 have thick hair and it was a big issue. The other one has normal thickness and it was much less of an issue for her.

Salt pools are closer to the salt levels of people and therefore feel less harsh all around. Some chlorine dosed pools will get to the same level after a couple of seasons because most chemicals used in pool care are ultimately salts, or break down into salt. So salt will add up like the chemicals with copper over time.

Many people add salt to their liquid chlorine dosed pools for the conditioned feel alone, without having to buy the chlorine generator.

 

[kbose]

Hey kbose and Welcome !!!

Enough copper in the water (surpisingly not very much at all) from all of those 'ionizer' or 'mineral' systems will turn blonde hair green. I saw it in person many years back when we used to frequent a friend's house that had a copper system. Any chlorox type chemicals sold at WalMarts (etc) with either blue or extra blue in the title contain copper as well as several algecides. It doesn't take long to get to the high threshold when using the pool store type methods heavy on shocks and algecides. It stains the pool surface too, but that's less of a concern when a client is in your chair.

My wife with thick hair swore off chlorine pools altogether after building a salt pool. You are entirely correct that the only difference between the two pools is how chlorine is added, and you can feel the difference in skin and hair. Skin feels silkier and hair gets less knotty. There are still some knots that need brushing, but not nearly as many and we stopped needing the special swim shampoos like when we were in chlorine dosed pools all the time. Two of my 3 have thick hair and it was a big issue. The other one has normal thickness and it was much less of an issue for her.

Salt pools are closer to the salt levels of people and therefore feel less harsh all around. Some chlorine dosed pools will get to the same level after a couple of seasons because most chemicals used in pool care are ultimately salts, or break down into salt. So salt will add up like the chemicals with copper over time.

Many people add salt to their liquid chlorine dosed pools for the conditioned feel alone, without having to buy the chlorine generator.

Thank you for the info!
Is there a difference between salt pools & liquid chlorine pools that add salt to their pools? Does adding salt to liquid chlorine pools give the same effect as a salt pool?

So, salt pools are technically better for skin and hair than liquid chlorine pools?
Is there any thing else different between the 2 types of pools? Is there more of one mineral (besides salt) than in the other?

Basically... If there were 3 pools
-Salt pool
-Liquid chlorine pool
-Liquid chlorine pool with salt added

And they were all balanced... and I were to run tests... would all the tests show the same numbers/results?

Thank you for the info!

 

[tim5055]

Thank you for the info!
Is there a difference between salt pools & liquid chlorine pools that add salt to their pools? Does adding salt to liquid chlorine pools give the same effect as a salt pool?

So, salt pools are technically better for skin and hair than liquid chlorine pools?
Is there any thing else different between the 2 types of pools? Is there more of one mineral (besides salt) than in the other?

Basically... If there were 3 pools
-Salt pool
-Liquid chlorine pool
-Liquid chlorine pool with salt added

And they were all balanced... and I were to run tests... would all the tests show the same numbers/results?

Thank you for the info!

Salt pools feel better, but I'm not sure they are actually better

No, all three you list are the same - chlorine pools. To the uninformed, there are other sources of chlorine like Trichlor tabs (a 3" tablet) or Dichlor (usually granules)

Chlorine is in the pool to accomplish one task, kill the bad stuff in the water. Really, there are three "types" of pools which have an EPA-approved disinfection alternative:

• Chlorine
• Bromine
• Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB

In the hair care industry, you should know about the Baquacil as it's based on something you know, Peroxide.

Yes, a balanced chlorine pool no matter the chlorine source should show similar numbers.

 

[Newdude]

Is there a difference between salt pools & liquid chlorine pools that add salt to their pools? Does adding salt to liquid chlorine pools give the same effect as a salt pool?

Once the salt level is similar, it's all the same. But rain, especially for months during the off season (if uncovered or using a mesh cover) may dilute the salt content some. Folks with salt pools usually top them off each spring.

So, salt pools are technically better for skin and hair than liquid chlorine pools?

Not better, just more comfortable. Your shower water had little to no salt, but you don't submerge yourself in it for hours on end. It would do the same if you did without the shampoo and conditioner. It's harmless but annoying.

Is there any thing else different between the 2 types of pools? Is there more of one mineral (besides salt) than in the other?

Every other level is the same. We reccomend a little bit higher Cyanuric Acid level for salt pools than we do for chlorine pools, but many non TFP folks have sky high CYA levels beyond what we reccomend for either when they get here. It doesn't appear to affect anything in people.

 

[kbose]

Once the salt level is similar, it's all the same. But rain, especially for months during the off season (if uncovered or using a mesh cover) may dilute the salt content some. Folks with salt pools usually top them off each spring.

Not better, just more comfortable. Your shower water had little to no salt, but you don't submerge yourself in it for hours on end. It would do the same if you did without the shampoo and conditioner. It's harmless but annoying.

Every other level is the same. We reccomend a little bit higher Cyanuric Acid level for salt pools than we do for chlorine pools, but many non TFP folks have sky high CYA levels beyond what we reccomend for either when they get here. It doesn't appear to affect anything in people.

Thank you for all the info! I really appreciate it!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just a note on calcium Hardness and hair, there is no chemical damage that occurs from high calcium. But, like your skin, high hardness water plus alkalinity will cause the precipitation of calcium carbonate as well as the formation of calcium stearate, aka soap-scum. This will give skin and hair that dry, rough “crunchy” feel. When swimming in any pool, if there is a fresh water shower nearby, it’s best to use it. Pool owners can setup a hose shower nowadays as there are many outdoor products sold for creating poolside showers. There’s even way to make warm water available by using black-color camping bladders to hold some heated water in. Lots of ideas out there on the inter-webz ….

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Someone should start a Facebook or Instagram trend to bring back swimming caps. As annoying as they might be, they solve a lot of problems with hair and chlorinated water … maybe if a Kardashian wore one they’d make a comeback …

 

[Mdragger88]

When people make blank statements like “salt pools are better than chlorine pools for skin/hair” & wish to convert they often have never experienced a properly balanced manually chlorinated pool. The differences between a tfpc maintained swg pool & a tfpc maintained manually chlorinated pool are negligible save for a few ppm of xtra salt

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Just my experience but in the hot summers I rarely shower immediately after swimming in my salt pool. My hair dries soft and has a lot of volume after swimming. My skin feels fine. My hairdresser compliments the condition of my hair.

The salt level in this type of pool is quite low compared to sea water, so don't make the mistake in comparing salt water in one to the harsh salt water of the sea. Its just enough added salt to cause the electric current of the device to make chlorine.

If the pool is not sanitary and has CCs (Combined Chloramines) it smells like chlorine actually and leaves the skin and hair feeling dirty. Hotel/Motel pools and spas are often disgusting if you've ever gone to one and thought "I smell chlorine, it must be okay?" yet the water is not gin-clear sparkly like the water users of our method get. Many TFP pool owners refuse to swim in any friend, neighbor, community pool as its not near as clean and sanitary as our pools. We are water snobs.

How Clear is TFP Clear? Let's See (Pics Only Please).

How clear should my water be? A very common question. Here is mine on a calm morning where I could finally vacuum. Yes I know, I'm still manually vacuuming. It took me 7 years to finally get an SWG, I'm working on a robot. :) So now let's see your water clarity.

www.troublefreepool.com

Maddie