Ground Rod

[poolman11]

I am installing a new 100 amp sub-panel in the same building that houses my pool pump and filter. Would it be safe to ground the new panel to the same ground rod that is grounding the pool pump, pool light, an outlet by the pool, and is bonded to the pool rails, or do I need to install a new ground rod for the new sub-panel?

 

[chiefwej]

Grounding and bonding are two different things. Grounding should go back to your main service panel, not be connected to the the pools bonding. If in doubt, consult an electrician with pool experienc.

 

[scchan1w]

I'm not a license electrician. That said, it depends on what you mean by "ground the new panel to the same ground rod". There should be a dedicated insulated ground wire of appropriate gauge from the main panel to the subpanel of course. The subpanel's ground bus bar should connect to all the equipment via dedicated insulated ground wires of appropriate gauge as well. In addition, and I think this is what you are asking, the case of the subpanel should tie into the case of all the pumps, lights, rebar, via 8 or 6 AWG bare cooper.

 

[poolman11]

I thought sub-panels needed their own dedicated grounding rod, as well as being grounded to the main service panel.

 

[proavia]

It would be best to consult with your local building department inspectors to see exactly what they require. Different jurisdictions may have different rules.

That being said, my jurisdiction doesn't allow a separate grounding rod for sub-panels. Mine requires a grounding wire be run from the main panel to the sub-panel. They also require that the sub-panel have the neutral connection bar isolated from the grounded metal sub-panel via a stand off (no continuity between neutral bar and ground bar without any wiring connected at sub-panel) - and since it's a pool sub-panel at the equipment pad, the pool/pump bonding grid wire needs to be attached to the sub-panel also.

Don't short circuit (no pun intended - ) the proper wiring - as you don't want the installation to compromise safety.

 

[PoolGate]

I thought sub-panels needed their own dedicated grounding rod, as well as being grounded to the main service panel.

No this is wrong. Subpanels are to use the ground of the main panel and I think specifically against code to have their own ground. I also think they are supposed to have their neutral and ground bars separate. Check with an electrician!

 

[Mdragger88]

There are only a few instances that call for more than one grounding electrode for a premises with a single service & I don’t believe this is one.

 

[Mdragger88]

 

[poolman11]

How do I bond the pool railing, and ground the pool pump to the ground rod without connecting the sub-panel to that rod? I took a continuity tester and as it is now the light, outlet, and pool railing are connected to the ground rod. If I connect the outlet to the new panel while it is still connected to the ground rod wouldn't that also ground the sub-panel to that rod as well. I'm sorry for all of the questions, I'm trying to rewire my building and I want to make sure I do it right.

 

[Mdragger88]

The sub panel should be fed with 2hot(s), 1 neutral, 1 ground (this is connected @ the main panel to the ground rod for your premises)
There should not be another ground rod on your property. Just the one at your main service entrance. Unless you have two meters for some reason. Every grounding conductor should be tied that one rod.
There is a separate bonding lug on your pump that is different from the ground. This bonding lug should be connected to your other bonding points of your pool.
bonding & grounding are different things

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JohnT]

How do I bond the pool railing, and ground the pool pump to the ground rod without connecting the sub-panel to that rod? I took a continuity tester and as it is now the light, outlet, and pool railing are connected to the ground rod. If I connect the outlet to the new panel while it is still connected to the ground rod wouldn't that also ground the sub-panel to that rod as well. I'm sorry for all of the questions, I'm trying to rewire my building and I want to make sure I do it right.

You don’t! No ground rod has any part in a pool bonding system.

 

[proavia]

You don’t! No ground rod has any part in a pool bonding system.

In the United States. I believe Canadian code requires a grounding rod to be included in the bonding grid. No idea what any other countries require.

But there is a BIG difference between bonding and grounding - if you are in the least bit unsure, have someone well versed in BOTH do it for you.

The OP should contact their local building inspection department to verify what is required.

 

[scchan1w]

I don't think it matters how many additional "ground rods" you have - they cannot be separate of course. They all have to be tied together. There is some confusion in the statement that you can't have two separate ground rods. What is meant is that you cannot have two electrically separated ground rods/ground networks. All the ground rods and ground wires and bonding wires need to form a SINGLE electrically equipotential network that is tied to earth. For example, if there wasn't a dedicated ground wire connecting the subpanel to the main panel, then the pool pad grounding rod would indeed be an electrically separated ground rod, and that would be a no no.

The pump case/lights/rebar are connected to the bonding network, which is tied to the subpanel case, which is connected to the main panel ground via a ground wire, which is connected to the main panel ground rod. Heck, the pump case is sitting on a concrete pad which is sitting on dirt. You can call that a ground "rod". Same with every other piece of equipment that's bonded to the bond wire and sitting on the pool pad concrete. Those can be considered a ground "rod" as well. The thing is, all these things are on the SAME network and are at the SAME electrical potential of zero (earth).

 

[scchan1w]

The sub panel should be fed with 2hot(s), 1 neutral, 1 ground (this is connected @ the main panel to the ground rod for your premises)
There should not be another ground rod on your property. Just the one at your main service entrance. Unless you have two meters for some reason. Every grounding conductor should be tied that one rod.
There is a separate bonding lug on your pump that is different from the ground. This bonding lug should be connected to your other bonding points of your pool.
bonding & grounding are different things

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I disagree that bonding and grounding are two different things. There are different concepts, but intimately tied, literally and figuratively. Bonding would not be very useful unless it were bonded to ground (0 volts). If I bonded all my equipment and the pool water together, but it's electric potential was at 120V relative to my main panel ground, that would not be safe indeed! It needs to be bonded, and it needs to be at ground potential (0 volts relative to my main panel ground - e.g. shorted together/tied together, one and same).

 

[Mdragger88]

Equipotential bonding isn’t about zero potential necessarily it’s about having the same potential. But no - you never tie the equipment grounding conductor for a pump to the bonding wire. The exception for not bonding a pool pump only applies to double insulated pumps & even in that instance you are required to run a bonding wire to the area for future replacement pumps.

 

[ajw22]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I disagree that bonding and grounding are two different things. There are different concepts, but intimately tied, literally and figuratively. Bonding would not be very useful unless it were bonded to ground (0 volts). If I bonded all my equipment and the pool water together, but it's electric potential was at 120V relative to my main panel ground, that would not be safe indeed! It needs to be bonded, and it needs to be at ground potential (0 volts relative to my main panel ground - e.g. shorted together/tied together, one and same).

You would be safe indeed as long as you stayed within the potential of the bonding grid. That is the purpose of bonding. Not to bring the pool potential to 0 Volts but to equalize the potential with the surrounding earth and equipment. Objects are not always at 0 volts and there is much stray voltage around structures due to electrical system leakage. The electrical grid is far from perfect. Bonding keeps you safe from those faults.

Why can a bird or a squirrel sit on an electrical line and not be electrocuted?

How do linemen work on live high voltage electrical lines?

MIT School of Engineering | » How do birds sit on high-voltage power lines without getting electrocuted?

engineering.mit.edu

If Power Lines Are So Dangerous, Why Don't Birds Sitting On Them Get Electrolcuted?

We are advised to stay away from electric poles but these birds and other small beings sit so coolly on overhead power lines. Why?

www.scienceabc.com

Here is a thread that has been going on for 6 years trying to find the source of a tingle - A Slight Shock.

Here the voltage source was a streetlight connected to the house power line Bonding Issue In A Pool.

Bonding and grounding are two different safety techniques for two very different possible electrical faults.

Bonding of pools should not be connected to ground rods in the US. Canada electrical codes are different.

 

[JamesW]

I am installing a new 100 amp sub-panel in the same building that houses my pool pump and filter.

Is the building a completely separate building from the main house?

If yes, how far apart are the two buildings?

For a project like this, you should have a qualified electrician helping you design the new installation and verify the installation.

Do you have a permit for this installation?

Have the local inspector check your plans to make sure that they are to code before you do anything.

 

[Bosley]

In the United States. I believe Canadian code requires a grounding rod to be included in the bonding grid. No idea what any other countries require.

But there is a BIG difference between bonding and grounding - if you are in the least bit unsure, have someone well versed in BOTH do it for you.

The OP should contact their local building inspection department to verify what is required.

This is incorrect. The ground rod has nothing to do with the bonding system.

 

[Newdude]

I don't think it matters how many additional "ground rods" you have - they cannot be separate of course. They all have to be tied together

And that has strict rules as well. Rods can’t be more than 10ft (?...... ish) apart and need to be bonded together with #8 gauge wire. More often than not it becomes far too counter-productive when you need to add another 10 rods to get from A to B.

 

[scchan1w]

That is the purpose of bonding. Not to bring the pool potential to 0 Volts but to equalize the potential with the surrounding earth and equipment. Objects are not always at 0 volts and there is much stray voltage around structures due to electrical system leakage. The electrical grid is far from perfect. Bonding keeps you safe from those faults.

I said "0 volts relative to the main panel ground". That means is equalpotential, e.g. no voltage difference with respect to earth.