GFCI circuit breaker options?

[ajw22]

I'm sure one of the experts will chime in but without a neutral I'm unsure if a gfci in the pool panel will even work?

Is Siemens enough of an expert? See the attached.

Note for the 2pole GFCI: A load neutral is not required on the circuit. However, the white line neutral (pigtail) must be connected to the panel neutral for the device to function.

 

[ajw22]

Those white wires in the panel are very misleading and should all be wrapped with black electrical tape to indicate they are HOT WIRES and not NEUTRAL wires.

 

[Ahultin]

Is Siemens enough of an expert? See the attached.

I was referring to the fact that there appears to be no neutral wire present in the pool panel (since the ground wire from the pump lands on the bar with the green from the panel, I presume green is ground as it should be and not neutral)

 

[Ahultin]

Re-reading the ops 1st post, the 2 white wires from the breaker and the green feed an intermatic timer. The intermatic time would require a neutral to work so green must be being used as neutral and white as hot

 

[ajw22]

Re-reading the ops 1st post, the 2 white wires from the breaker and the green feed an intermatic timer. The intermatic time would require a neutral to work so green must be being used as neutral and white as hot

I would not make that assumption.

A T104 timer does not require a neutral. It has a 208V clock motor that runs with two hots.

The CB panel is all 230V circuits.

 

[BMerrill]

Install the surge protector at the closest location where the Feeder lines attached to the buss bars. This may required existing breakers to be moved.

 

[ShinDiors]

Very informative discussion, folks, thanks so much. I'm not sure if I have neutral line since this is a 1950s house and the pool was built in the 80s-90s (when the wire was pulled from the main panel). Renovation of the pool did not touch the wiring (from main to sub).

The right two breakers currently are not being used, top one was for the gas heater, and bottom for the polaris booster pump originally. Now that I'm using robot for cleaning, I'm pretty sure at least one breaker slot is free. So judging from the picture, where is the space for the surge protector (and is it going to work in my case, if I don't have neutral wire?)? I assume it would be the right bottom corner (where the polaris breaker is, since the feed wire goes from bottom up). The GFCI can be put on the vacant slot from the left side right?

 

[ShinDiors]

I would not make that assumption.

A T104 timer does not require a neutral. It has a 208V clock motor that runs with two hots.

The CB panel is all 230V circuits.

I'm pretty sure it is one of the T100 series mechanic timer, the very basic one where you have to use clips to get the switch turning on/off at certain time.

 

[ajw22]

The GFCI can be put on the vacant slot from the left side right?

GFCI CBs will not work in that panel without pulling a neutral line into the panel.

 

[ShinDiors]

GFCI CBs will not work in that panel without pulling a neutral line into the panel.

Ah, so no GFCI no surge protector either? Glad I did not pay $100 for that GFCI.

 

[ajw22]

Ah, so no GFCI no surge protector either? Glad I did not pay $100 for that GFCI.

Surge protector in the panel can work with 2 hots and ground.

Surge protector and GFCI are two different devices that work in different ways.

 

[ShinDiors]

Is Siemens enough of an expert? See the attached.

Note for the 2pole GFCI: A load neutral is not required on the circuit. However, the white line neutral (pigtail) must be connected to the panel neutral for the device to function.

Sorry to ask again, about your bolded text here, beg your pardon for my ignorance here, what is the "panel neutral" here, and is it panel dependent (I've seen posts saying the white need to connected to a "Neutral bar" only) or the actual wiring dependent (needs an actual N wire)?

For example this post: 2P GFCI Breaker, No Neutral..

 

[ajw22]

Sorry to ask again, about your bolded text here, beg your pardon for my ignorance here, what is the "panel neutral" here, and is it panel dependent (I've seen posts saying the white need to connected to a "Neutral bar" only) or the actual wiring dependent (needs an actual N wire)?

They are different terminology but all say the same thing that there needs to be a neutral connection back to the main panel electrical service. There are different ways that neutral connection can be made in the panels and wiring.

For example this post: 2P GFCI Breaker, No Neutral..

I don't know what you are reading in that thread. The discussion supports that a line side neutral is required for a GFCI CB to operate. That discussion is also 3 years old and some details about how current GFCIs operate have changed.

Trying to be a Doctor or an Electrician based on what you learn on the Internet can be dangerous to your health.

 

[Ahultin]

Do you have a picture of your main panel with dead front removed? How far is it from the pool panel?

 

[ShinDiors]

Do you have a picture of your main panel with dead front removed? How far is it from the pool panel?

 

[ShinDiors]

@ajw22 @BMerrill @Ahultin
I've attached the pix of the main panel and the "recommended wiring diagram" on the panel. I think I see the ground bus on the left side, right? And I've read that it was quite common in the days to "bond" Neutral and Ground together at main, so I'm not sure if it is the case in my panel here, but I do see two buses on the left side, and the upper larger one seems to be the ground, and there is another smaller bus close to all the breakers with some white wires plugged in, that looks to be the "neutral"?

In my pix 3, the yellow circled out 2-pole 30A breaker is feeding to the pool subpanel, which is maybe 20ish ft away (but has to go through the utility room and a 2-car garage).

Any more insights on if the GFCI breaker would work in my case? Thanks so much.

If too much hassle to resolve the Neutral line issue at the pool subpanel, is it OK to have a 30A GFCI swapped in at the main panel (assuming my guess was right, and that was a neutral bus).

 

[Ahultin]

I think I see the ground bus on the left side, right? And I've read that it was quite common in the days to "bond" Neutral and Ground together at main

This looks to be your main panel, in a main panel only neutral and ground are bonded. Electrical definitely looks to have been upgraded since the house was built in the 50's as I'm thinking that's a lates 80's early 90's ge panel.
You do have a neutral coming presumably from the pole (the heavy guage wire landing on the right neutral buss taped white) which does give you a solution.

Any more insights on if the GFCI breaker would work in my case? Thanks so much.

Best option would be to get some black #10 thwn wire and add a fourth conductor to the pool run. It looks like it is in conduit and 20 ft should be doable. Can you visibly see the full run? You may have to connect Mike tape/pull rope to the existing wires, pull them out to the single gang pull box by the pool panel, add the 4th conductor and pull them back to the main.

If too much hassle to resolve the Neutral line issue at the pool subpanel, is it OK to have a 30A GFCI swapped in at the main panel

You unfortunately do not have the room to do so. Your existing breakers in the main panel appear to be "tandem" or "slimline", a 2 pole gfci breaker will take the equivalent of 4 spaces in the main.
If you can pull the wire I would do that. The only other solution I see that could work would be, if you have room, mount another small sub panel next to your main, feed it from the current 30 amp pool breaker (bringing a neutral and ground into it). Put the gfci breaker in there then feed the pool sub from that.

 

[ajw22]

You have separate ground bar at the top of the panel and netutral bars on both sides under the CBs.

 

[ShinDiors]

This looks to be your main panel, in a main panel only neutral and ground are bonded. Electrical definitely looks to have been upgraded since the house was built in the 50's as I'm thinking that's a lates 80's early 90's ge panel.
You do have a neutral coming presumably from the pole (the heavy guage wire landing on the right neutral buss taped white) which does give you a solution.

Best option would be to get some black #10 thwn wire and add a fourth conductor to the pool run. It looks like it is in conduit and 20 ft should be doable. Can you visibly see the full run? You may have to connect Mike tape/pull rope to the existing wires, pull them out to the single gang pull box by the pool panel, add the 4th conductor and pull them back to the main.

You unfortunately do not have the room to do so. Your existing breakers in the main panel appear to be "tandem" or "slimline", a 2 pole gfci breaker will take the equivalent of 4 spaces in the main.
If you can pull the wire I would do that. The only other solution I see that could work would be, if you have room, mount another small sub panel next to your main, feed it from the current 30 amp pool breaker (bringing a neutral and ground into it). Put the gfci breaker in there then feed the pool sub from that.

Thanks a lot. To your best option comment, I don't think I can clearly see the whole run to the pool panel, everything seems to be run inside wall/ceiling.

This is where the feeder wire coming out from wall at the pool side.

 

[ShinDiors]

You have separate ground bar at the top of the panel and netutral bars on both sides under the CBs.

View attachment 523018

From the pool panel, I see three feeder wires coming in, white, blue and dark green. Is the dark green ground or neutral? From the 30A breakers at main panel, I see two wires one red one white. The only option for GFCI to work is to fish a separate natural wire from the pool panel back to the main panel and plug into the netural bus?