Get a SWCG, "it will be great" they said......

[mgtfp]

Is rocket science actually rocket science?

 

[SoDel]

Sometimes it is rocket science.

It's all well and good as long as everything is working, but when you get an unusual issue, then it takes more than a "simple" understanding about what's happening.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein

Totally agree. Most people don’t want to know how anything works . . . until it doesn’t. But unless and until that happens, most people live in a blissful ignorance and there’s a point where I have to join them lol. When Armageddon comes, I anticipate a drain and refill and back to five elements . I’d like to believe I understand them, at least enough to go on to something else. From what I’ve seen, when it gets more complicated than that, it becomes a fight of competing constraints and it’s really time to start over anyway. Where it gets really tough is when the refill water is part of the actual issue and even just starting over doesn’t work. Then the rocket scientists need to get called in to help. My fill water is benign and climate here produces enough but not too much rain so I count myself lucky .

 

[SoDel]

Is rocket science actually rocket science?

Apparently not . Rocket scientists aren't any smarter than the rest of us, science says

 

[JamesW]

Most people do not understand how 99.999% of the world works.

We use our cell phones and it seems so simple; and it is from a user perspective, but the magic behind the scenes is incredible.

We go onto Amazon and click a button and stuff magically appears at our door faster than we can run from our computer to the door.

It “seems” simple, but the computers and logistics that happen behind the scenes is beyond the understanding of almost everyone.

We ask Google any question and it answers in a quintillionth of a nanosecond and we just take it for granted.

Google maps tells us exactly where we are and guides us to our destination using satellites and clocks accurate to a few picoseconds.

All human progress depends on going beyond “simple” answers and into increasingly complex answers about everything.

Let’s take a second and really appreciate the intelligence and complexity of our everyday world that is handed to us on a silver platter by some very intelligent people doing incredibly complex things.

 

[SoDel]

Most people do not understand how 99.999% of the world works.

We use our cell phones and it seems so simple; and it is from a user perspective, but the magic behind the scenes is incredible.

We go onto Amazon and click a button and stuff magically appears at our door faster than we can run from our computer to the door.

It “seems” simple, but the computers and logistics that happen behind the scenes is beyond the understanding of almost everyone.

We ask Google any question and it answers in a quintillionth of a nanosecond and we just take it for granted.

Google maps tells us exactly where we are and guides us to our destination using satellites and clocks accurate to a few picoseconds.

All human progress depends on going beyond “simple” answers and into increasingly complex answers about everything.

Let’s take a second and really appreciated the intelligence and complexity of our everyday world that is handed to us on a silver platter by some very intelligent people doing incredibly complex things.

Here here! With you 100%! But can I also ask we all appreciate the 99.999% who do stuff that needs doing mostly anonymously grinding away while not understanding at all the remarkable infrastructure that makes, say, their cherished internet social media on a mobile phone work lol. I was taught long ago that basically everyone involved is needed for mission completion and I’ve always tried (often failed) to appreciate everyone’s contribution.

The progress paradox told me long ago that the reasonable men adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -Shaw. Most people find me unreasonable so I guess I’m doing my part lol.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

 

[generessler]

The progress paradox told me long ago that the reasonable men adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -Shaw. Most people find me unreasonable so I guess I’m doing my part lol.

Haha. Yes. This discussion also brings to mind one of my favorites: Kipling, "Sons of Martha" on the role of engineers. A few lines I can't read without choking up.

Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path more fair or flat;
Lo, it is black already with blood some Son of Martha spilled for that !
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need.

 

[mgtfp]

Google maps tells us exactly where we are and guides us to our destination using satellites and clocks accurate to a few picoseconds.

Which is where Einstein comes back into play. I don't think that those who think that General Relativity is of no use in daily life understand that, to get that precision in your time measurements, you have to consider and understand gravitational time dilation.

 

[JamesW]

you have to consider and understand gravitational time dilation.

And the relative velocity time dilation.

 

[JeanZ1]

Matt these plates are locked in tight and offset in this cell housing. Opening it up with a sawsall or hammer would be the only way to get a good look. Hard to imagine how the Ruthy coating could have been damaged that bad, that fast to cause this situation with only zip tie cleanings all of season 1and only recent use of 1:10 MA solution in addition. If I can limp this cell through until winter perhaps I can send it to CPool for evaluation.
Right now I am monitoring the cells performance and hoping the problem does not repeat.

Cena-sea, there is a polarity shift occurring at each new cycle that can be confirmed reading the voltage and amperage display. The cycles run just over 200 minutes if I remember correctly and my system is set at 65%.

Thanks for all the mind power here. It difficult for me to hash this out with the retailer due to the unique perspectives and so many potential issues possibly involved.

Doesn’t your RJ 60 have a translucent housing? I can clearly see the status of mine. Circupool sells a replacement electrode so it must be fairly easy to remove from housing. FYI replacement cell is cheaper than just replacement electrode, go figure.

 

[Oly]

My Taylor K-1106 PO4 test kit arrived and my pool water tested at 2000ppb.
I just applied 21.6 oz of Oredna PR-10,000 per the instructions and the "Pro Tips" listed on their product web site. The water column has already reacted and is a milky blue and I will have another look in the morning for precipitates. Once I think the time is right, maybe several days, I will release the bot and start the extraction process. I will also monitor my filter pressure and am prepared to clean the grids if warranted.
We do get wind events that introduce dirt and leaves into the pool and we also have many grandkids 5 and under that could introduce PO4. I believe a significant factor may be wild fire ash which has been significant the last several years. Regardless the process is underway and soon I will have the recently cleaned cell generating Cl. For how long? We'll see.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

My Taylor K-1106 PO4 test kit arrived and my pool water tested at 2000ppb.
I just applied 21.6 oz of Oredna PR-10,000 per the instructions and the "Pro Tips" listed on their product web site. The water column has already reacted and is a milky blue and I will have another look in the morning for precipitates. Once I think the time is right, maybe several days, I will release the bot and start the extraction process. I will also monitor my filter pressure and am prepared to clean the grids if warranted.
We do get wind events that introduce dirt and leaves into the pool and we also have many grandkids 5 and under that could introduce PO4. I believe a significant factor may be wild fire ash which has been significant the last several years. Regardless the process is underway and soon I will have the recently cleaned cell generating Cl. For how long? We'll see.

It’s imperative you clean the filter after the water has cleared. A typical time frame is to wait 48hrs with the pump running continuously and then deep clean the filter. If you don’t, the lanthanum phosphate precipitate can re-release the phosphate. This is why it has to be physically filtered and removed. It does no good to add phosphate remover and then let it sit.

 

[Oly]

The is from the product site:
It reacts with all known types of phosphates on contact and hardens them into a fine precipitate, which falls out of solution. The inert phosphates then floc out, to be vacuumed or filtered out of the pool

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The is from the product site:
It reacts with all known types of phosphates on contact and hardens them into a fine precipitate, which falls out of solution. The inert phosphates then floc out, to be vacuumed or filtered out of the pool

Yes, it forms a precipitate, and that precipitate will remain mostly stable. You can try to let it form a floc and drop it to the bottom of the pool but robots are not very efficient at collecting flocs without kicking them back up into suspension. Removing the precipitate by slowly vacuuming it up and cleaning the filter ensures it is gone. Leaving it behind to remain in the filter leaves a question mark as the stability of lanthanum phosphate can be affected water chemistry. Up to you, but whenever I have used phosphate removers, I always time it with a filter cleaning so that I ensure it is gone. SeaKlear recommends cleaning filter cartridges or backwashing 48 hours after application precisely so that the phosphate is removed.

 

[Oly]

I have some more information for the deep divers at TFP including an Ag lab test on the pool water and the actual cell scale. I have also been in contact with CircuPool who have been great, willing to help and providing diagnosis and recommendations on cell operation procedures. My plan in the next few months is to send the cell for testing which they are willing to do, although they claim cells either work or they don't, like a light bulb (their words).

Now the good news is the cell is operating although the calculated salt is 4100ppm (tested at 3800, within error) and has been operating for three days now at 40%.
There is still some soft scale sloughing off the cell after a polarity shift and settling on the pool bottom. No reduction in amperage draw or calculated salt ppm in three days.

What has changed in the last 14 days.....
Lowered the PO4 from 2000ppb to 500+ppm. Tested tap water at 250pp
Waited several days, installed cell and experienced another low salt shutdown after 12 hours of run time.
CircuPool suggested two modifications; 1) increase flow rate through cell 2) invert cell (vertical install). Their thought is a possible bubble building up around the sensor at the top of the cell.
I have realized that each of the low salt shutdowns happened during the low rpm setting and well into the longest schedule time, so bubble theory is plausible.
I restarted the cell and increased the lowest rpm setting from 1400 to 1600 and had another low salt shutdown after 12 hours.
I removed and cleaned the cell then raised the low rpm to 1800. I now have close to 20 hours of run time with no shut down so far and FC at expected levels. I have not inverted the cell. I have also set the pump to run at #1 = 2300rpm for 45 mins, #2 = 1800 for 5 1/2 hours and #3 = 2300 for 1 hr. The cell operates for six hours at 40% now.

Now as with most things in life there may be more than one issue. Everyone is amazed at the scaling despite the low CSI and LSI and below I have the results from the lab.
What I notice is the high Mg, B and Zn in the scale test. What do you see?

Pool water 22.jpg

• Oly
• Sep 29, 2022

Cell Scale test.jpg

• Oly
• Sep 29, 2022

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Do you have a Zn anode somewhere in your plumbing?

FYI - magnesium and zinc will always scale out before calcium. So any scale formation is going to be a mixture of calcium and magnesium compounds. The magnesium will be more concentrated in the scale. That said, magnesium scale is generally softer/mushy than calcium scale. Your pool water has a Ca:Mg ratio of around 3:1. That’s pretty typical compared to most terrestrial water supplies so no big deal there.

 

[Oly]

Thanks Matt, no Zinc anode, and yes this recent scale is soft and can easily be removed with a hose with pressure nozzle. Increasing the pump rpm may also be keeping the cell plates open.

 

[JamesW]

The scale report is not very clear about what the units are or how to read the test.

Under percent it doesn't give anything with a high percentage?

Can you explain what the test means more clearly?

It doesn't seem like they have identified the scale?

 

[Oly]

For the scale test the B, Cu, Fe, Mn and Zn are ppm.
The other results are in % by dried sample weight.
One percent is equal to 10000 parts-per million.

 

[JamesW]

The identified components add up to 4.18 percent.

What is the other 95.82 percent?