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Oly

Oly

Gold Supporter
Jun 28, 2017
3,014
Fresno, CA
Pool Size
27000
After a recent cell cleaning, yesterday, my RJ-60+ shut down again today (low salt, cell maint light) after maybe 6 1/2 hours of actual run time (10 hours at 65%).
This is not the first time this has happened. I watched the voltage rise slightly and amperage numbers drop off a cliff in 4 hours this morning. The calculated salinity went from 4700 to 2400ppm in that time.
I shut down the pump and pulled out the cell today and was amazed by the amount of scale in the cell in the short amount of time.

SWCG scale 9_7_22.jpg

SWCG scale 9_7_22.jpg

  • Oly
Scale recovery

I will weigh the solids after it dries and try the fizz test for Ca. I may also test for Mg. I have never added salt to my pool other than what was there due to liquid chlorine and MA over 4 years. In fact I had to drain and
refill enough to drop the salinity from 4500 to 3500ppm before starting the cell a year ago in the spring.
My current water test results:
pH 7.2
TA 40
CH 250
Salinity 3800
Water temp 86f (temp from cell sensor 92f)
CYA 60 with FC at 7.5

Now I admit to not using the CircuPool recommended cleaning method. (fill cell with 1:4 MA solution until reaction stops)
Yesterday besides using the zip tie I also used acetic acid 4% in a spray bottle followed by a high pressure hose.
CircuPool does answer their emails and they remarked on the issue of water balance and best LI numbers. They also said that it may take 2 or 3 cleanings for best results.
Today after the zip tie I used a 1:10 MA solution as a spray with hose chaser. The hot acid bath is my next option if this continues.
Any ideas how to mitigate this? I can live with a 30 day maintenance schedule but this after only 24 hours is an issue.
Any thoughts on additional water quality testing to diagnose the issue?
Should I explore my TDS numbers?
Maybe market this as a calcium reducer for residential pools? :scratch:
Any thoughts?
Thanks. :cheers:
 
Last edited:
Add borates to your pool.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

Borates is a strong buffer against high pH changes inside the cell as the pKa is around 9.0 for the boric acid/borate ion buffer system. Keeping the pH in check means that calcium scaling is less likely and thus the cell can run without getting coated with scale.
 
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Can you take the plates out of the cell or the array plates? Can I see a picture of them when they are clean?

Don’t worry about drying the white stuff. Do the acid test now. Add some flakes, maybe a teaspoon or so, to a glass shot glass and then add a few mL’s of muriatic acid.

After all the fizzing stops can you see any of the precipitate remaining??
 
Also, does anyone know if Baily’s Irish Cream goes bad? I found a bottle in the back of my pantry and it says “Best before Oct 2022”. It’s been in the pantry for years.

And yes, that question is a “hijack” but I was nice in my previous post and and stayed on point …
 
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Has it been opened? If so, and it's been in the pantry "for years," just throw it out and go buy a new bottle. While the label doesn't say so, once opened, I would not leave anything with milk or cream in it at room temperature. For shelf life of stuff in general, look here:

StillTasty: Your Ultimate Shelf Life Guide - Save Money, Eat Better, Help The Environment

StillTasty.com has comprehensive information about how long you can keep thousands of foods and beverages.
stilltasty.com stilltasty.com
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
I found a bottle in the back of my pantry and it says “Best before Oct 2022”.
Click to expand...

Baileys Original lasts 2 years from the day of bottling, opened or unopened when stored at the optimum temperature (0 to 25°C/32 to 77°F).

1662598255768.png

What is the bottling date?

Frequently Asked Questions | Baileys US

Discover the premium quality of Baileys Original Irish Cream. Learn more about our history, find delicious drink recipes and explore the many tempting flavors.
www.baileys.com
 
Oly said:
After a recent cell cleaning, yesterday, my RJ-60+ shut down again today (low salt, cell maint light) after maybe 6 1/2 hours of actual run time (10 hours at 65%).
This is not the first time this has happened. I watched the voltage rise slightly and amperage numbers drop off a cliff in 4 hours this morning. The calculated salinity went from 4700 to 2400ppm in that time.
I shut down the pump and pulled out the cell today and was amazed by the amount of scale in the cell in the short amount to time.

SWCG scale 9_7_22.jpg

SWCG scale 9_7_22.jpg

  • Oly
Scale recovery

I will weigh the solids after it dries and try the fizz test for Ca. I may also test for Mg. I have never added salt to my pool other than what was there due to liquid chlorine and MA over 4 years. In fact I had to drain and
refill enough to drop the salinity from 4500 to 3500ppm before starting the cell a year ago in the spring.
My current water test results:
pH 7.2
TA 40
CH 250
Salinity 3800
Water temp 86f (temp from cell sensor 92f)
CYA 60 with FC at 7.5

Now I admit to not using the CircuPool recommended cleaning method. (fill cell with 1:4 MA solution until reaction stops)
Yesterday besides using the zip tie I also used acetic acid 4% in a spray bottle followed by a high pressure hose.
CircuPool does answer their emails and they remarked on the issue of water balance and best LI numbers. They also said that it may take 2 or 3 cleanings for best results.
Today after the zip tie I used a 1:10 MA solution as a spray with hose chaser. The hot acid bath is my next option if this continues.
Any ideas how to mitigate this? I can live with a 30 day maintenance schedule but this after only 24 hours is an issue.
Any thoughts on additional water quality testing to diagnose the issue?
Should I explore my TDS numbers?
Maybe market this as a calcium reducer for residential pools? :scratch:
Any thoughts?
Thanks. :cheers:
Click to expand...
I’ve been running my rj60 for a couple years and have never had to clean it. I run my CSI just slightly negative. Have you been tracking CSI?
 

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Oly,

I entered your numbers, and it appears your CSI is -1.09. It should be just on the neg side of 0.

I'd play with Pool Math and see what you can change to get your CSI closer to zero.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
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Thanks Jim and BPerry, yes with my system I have the flexibility to run a negative CSI. Jim your suggestion seems to me to be going the wrong direction if I want to slow scale.
I have been running my CSI well below -.6 for nearly 2 seasons now in an effort to slow down the scale buildup. Last season, my first, I was able to slow the scale by reducing my TA from 90 to below 50.
I also made progress by keeping the pH in the low 7s, keeping the deposits soft. My bot picks up material on the bottom after its ejected from the cell by the polarity shift.
It seems to my thinking that raising the Ca saturation index by increasing the Ca level and/or increasing the TA and/or raising the pH would increase the buildup and hardness of the scale formation on the cell plates under the same conditions. It does seem to be worse now that water temps are peaking and this season I have not utilized my sail shades over the water like the last two so surface water temps are higher now and I am pulling all my water through my skimmer.

Matt, the many plates in the RJ-60+ are sandwiched tightly in the housing and it's impossible to see the plate faces unless looking from the bottom or top of the stack at the light in between. The small space between the plates make cleaning manually very tedious and will restrict water flow rapidly when scale builds resulting in the shut down. Perhaps this is the reason for CircuPools cleaning recommendation that I have been avoiding. Time will tell and if this issue persists after my second cleaning I will try a 1:10 soak before the final 1:4 desperate attempt. I believe I had a thin layer of the Ca scale left on the cell plates after the first cleaning that was not removed by the zip tie/acetic acid spray and this resulted in a nucleation of the scale formation and rapid buildup. I am hoping spraying the diluted MA reacted with the buildup faster on the second cleaning and did a more thorough job. I did the undiluted MA acid test on some of the removed scale and it did fully dissolve after the reaction. Be careful, I read studies showing Bailey's causes scale of the lower intestines. :wink:

Thanks Allen, I am aware of the role Borates play in this system and while yes they may help with pH in the cell, they can become an issue here with our heavy clay soils, low leaching ability and the accumulation of boron. I already face this issue with the 3500+ ppm of NaCl in the pool water now on certain trees and plants on the property.

I did recently clean and recharge my DE filter grids prior to this situation but DE is silicon dioxide and should not be a factor.
I will see what tomorrow brings.
 
Last edited:
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Thanks mgtfp, I have played with run speeds over time for this reason.
My initial observations over the last two seasons of the cell operating during low vs higher rpm is a reduction of the amp draw and a lower calculated salt ppm at higher pump speeds vs lower, 2300 vs 1350, but this was not with a fully clean cell so trying not to make a wild general assumption. I have avoided low salt shut downs by keep pump speeds low when the cell is working. I will test this again today with a clean cell.
I do have my pump rpm at 2300 prior to the cell startup and for 10 minutes after before it drops down to 1350 for a 9 hour run. The pump ramps up again at the last 1.5 hours of the day and the cell will be running. The cell then shuts down 45 minutes before the pump. I am thinking the higher rpm times may assist the polarity shift in dislodging any scale on the plates.
I keep coming back to high water and cell temps shifting the reaction along with an incomplete job of cell cleaning. My pump and cell do get some direct sun near noon and this correlates with the time of day the amps are dropping fastest along with the calculated salt levels. I have put up a sun block this morning to get through this heat wave but will be unable to isolate the solution if all goes well today. First things first, I need to get this system more reliable before I have to make a liquid chlorine run.
 
Just checked cell and it is operating at 20.+ volts, 6.3 amps with a calculated salt of 4300ppm. No significant difference at 1350 vs 2300 rpm. This is consistent with a recently cleaned cell in the morning, my experience.
 
For such low CH water that seems like way too much buildup. I have never checked the swg but I'm wondering if there is an issue with your unit (ie: cell reversing aka cleaning mode).
 
It does not look like normal calcium carbonate.

The main types of calcium scale are calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, calcium silicate and calcium sulfate.

It might be calcium phosphate.

Check the phosphate levels.

Test the scale with acid to see if it fizzes.



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Calcium scale.jpg
 
I’d like to see the cell plates. My gut feeling is that the ruthenium coating has been damaged in some way exposing the underlying titanium plate and that is causing increased scale formation because titanium does not catalyze the electrochemical reaction that forms chlorine gas. So there may be significant areas of the plates that are just electrolyzing water into hydrogen, hydroxide and oxygen. This is typically what you see in an old electrolysis cell - the coating is gone, the chlorine gas output drops, and the chemistry changes significantly.
 
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Do you use scale inhibitors that might contribute to the phosphate levels or dry acid that might contribute to the sulfate levels?

If it might be calcium phosphate, you can try a phosphate reducer to see if that helps.

Based on the low CSI and the rapid buildup of scale, calcium carbonate seems unlikely to me.
 
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No scale inhibitors and I may have a water quality test done last year from an ag lab that details the Phosphate level and TDS then. I may want to run a current test. I did the fizz test and there was a rapid reaction and the sample was completely dissolved after a bit of agitation.

I collected the scale from the bottom of a 5gal bucket after using a hose nozzel on the soft buildup in the cell and spraying maybe 8oz of 1:10 MA into the cell and into the bucket. I decanted most of the 4+ gallons of solution then strained the bottom dregs with the yellow towel. That may account for the unusual "look" of the scale. Thanks JamesW for the suggestions on possible diagnosis directions. I will review your links.

Calcium silicate is an interesting idea as well as I did just clean and recharge my DE filter with silicon dioxide, DE prior to this rapid cell fouling.
 

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