Public pools normally have zero CYA. FC at 7 with zero CYA is an extremely high active chlorine level. Everything changes when you have CYA in the water, which binds to most of the chlorine and effectively holds it in reserve.
First time pool owner, BBB method opening, cloudy water.
- Thread starter JesseWV
- Start date
public pools are a whole different animal- code is set up so 1 in a million doesn't suffer
some people are sensitive, and get flaky skin
Kids tend to inhale water, and the FC can kill stomach bacteria and result in diarhea, etc
all kinds of issues in public pool
the only health hazard is minor diarrhea, until you get to ridiculous levels of FC- unless you are one of those sensitives...
it can be a little more damaging to swimwear- but what the heck, my daughter has a different swimsuit for every day of the week anyway!
It really is safe to swim in FC 20 swimming pools- especially with some CYA in it!
some people are sensitive, and get flaky skin
Kids tend to inhale water, and the FC can kill stomach bacteria and result in diarhea, etc
all kinds of issues in public pool
the only health hazard is minor diarrhea, until you get to ridiculous levels of FC- unless you are one of those sensitives...
it can be a little more damaging to swimwear- but what the heck, my daughter has a different swimsuit for every day of the week anyway!
It really is safe to swim in FC 20 swimming pools- especially with some CYA in it!
FC at 20 without any CYA will cause your hair to break off and damage anything metal rather quickly. FC at 20 with CYA at 50 won't do much of anything to people or metal. It all depends on the CYA level.
Why should it be illegal? They are not allowed to be used for testing most commercial/public pools, but you are not legally required to test your pool at all. What you do with your pool is similar to how you cook in your kitchen. You can leave a chicken out all day in the sun, have its juices on the counter when you then slice vegetables, etc. and the government doesn't care. It's only in restaurants where such practices are strictly prohibited and serious fines or even jail (for serious negligence) are possible.JesseWV said:
Test strips are next to useless. They can't even test for Calcium Hardness and only test for Total Hardness. Look at a comparison of test strips vs. drop-based tests in this post that is only comparing resolution and not even addressing the way-off accuracy of some of the tests, most notably CYA. Just read the dozens upon dozens of reports on this forum of bad results from test strips as well as from pool stores. You really, really, really need to get yourself a good test kit, but we've already told you that and your wife (unfortunately) nixed it.
It all depends on the CYA level since it is the FC/CYA ratio that determines the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level. Now that said, you don't want to drink large quantities of that pool water since the FC is what matters in terms of chlorine capacity. As for public pools, the maximum FC varies by jurisdiction with the highest being 10 ppm. The EPA has a maximum of 4 ppm for drinking water, but many jurisdictions allow higher than that for pools. Unfortunately, no jurisdictions that I know of properly regulate the FC relative to the CYA level.JesseWV said:
I see your point. People could not test at all and swim in a cesspool if they wanted to.chem geek said:
However, I do think that if you're going to sell a product that claims to do something it should actually be able do it within some reasonable deviation. The strip vs drop test results in the thread you linked show large margins of error.
It's like selling a thermometer that is off by 30F and saying "They aren't allowed to use those thermometers in commercial food storage refrigerators, so it is acceptable."
I'm sure you know how entirely possible and probable it is for someone to royally mess things up if they accepted the readings on strips as accurate. I can honestly say it's been hard not to make drastic changes to the water based on the strips results. If I hadn't found this site who knows what kind of mess I would be in right now.
It seems to me that a product intended to measure should be regulated and tested by some department of weights and measures somewhere?! Right?
I've shopped for thermometers and seen some that are way off (though not 30ºF), but what keeps them from being ridiculously far off is that people would stop buying them or would take them back to the store for a refund, etc. For water test kits, there are inexpensive ones that aren't as good and more expensive ones that are better. You are responsible for picking the one that you want.JesseWV said:
The office or bureau of weights and measures or division of measurement standards, which varies by state (and sometimes by county), is about commercial weighing and accuracy, so scales as well as some metered output such as gasoline pumps or taxicab meters as well as product labeling such as net weight of food items. That does not apply to most consumer products including water test kits. About the best you could do would be to sue the companies for any fraudulent claims as to being an "accurate" test kit, but unless they make a specific accuracy claim that they are missing, you'd have a hard time winning and quite frankly anything less than a class action lawsuit would not have enough "damages" to justify the legal expense of the action. The low resolution of the test strip products I took right from pictures on their bottles -- they aren't hiding that. It's the even lower accuracy for some of the tests that isn't explicitly disclosed.JesseWV said:
The pool and spa industry is full of products with far more questionable claims or withheld information than those from test strip test kits. There are copper ion systems that claim to kill bacteria even though at concentrations used in pools they have no effect whatsoever on fecal bacteria. There is nothing on the bottles or instructions of Trichlor saying how with every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 6 ppm or with Dichlor where for every 10 ppm FC it increases CYA by 9 ppm or with Cal-Hypo where for every 10 ppm FC it increases CH by at least 7 ppm. There is just this nebulous "yeah, it increases CYA (or CH) some" that some pool store people say plus the chemical ingredients listed on the label (so if you know chemistry you can figure out the side effects). However, if you think this industry has problems with full and accurate disclosure, you should look at the dietary supplements industry which makes all kinds of claims, though it got so bad that they now are legally required to have the boilerplate statement that the product is not intended to treat, diagnose, prevent, or cure diseases. See this link for more info including how new products only have to show that they are safe, not effective.
I scanned this thread briefly.
When you get dirt coming back into the pool after backwashing, are you placing your multiport valve on "rinse" before you return it to "filter"?
When you get dirt coming back into the pool after backwashing, are you placing your multiport valve on "rinse" before you return it to "filter"?
duraleigh said:
To answer your question: Yes. I have been rinsing before going back to filtering.
However, I think you may have misread. Dirt doesn't come back into the pool after backwashing. It comes into the pool during vacuuming. It happens when I vacuum up a large patch of debris from the bottom with the valve in the "filter" position. Lately I've been doing very quick vacuuming to "waste" to avoid this.
I plan on replacing the spoke gasket as soon as I get some time. I hope that fixes the problem. Does anyone know if this can be done with the pump and return lines still hooked into the valve?
You shouldn't have to unhook any lines to change the spider gasket in the multiport.
Listen Jesse, I know your wife put the kabash on your test kit order, but I can attest to the necessity of a good test kit. Last year I had an algae problem because I didn't know that my FC levels were low because of a build up of CYA. I couldn't tell if there was a "purplish" hue or not on the test strip. Now I know EXACTLY what my numbers are instead of guessing "color hues".
Bring her to the computer and have her read this thread>>>> let your man have the kit!!! It's like mowing the lawn with a pair of dull scissors!! When you have a "Trouble Free Pool" you'll have a happy momma ... and when momma's happy ...
I highly recommend the TF-100 kit, nicely prepared and full of testing supplies. I highly recommend the BBB method, and I highly recommend the "pool calculator". When you practice and use all three, being the "pool boy" is a breeze ... now on to mixing alcohol chemicals instead of pool chemicals and the "bar keep" is open for business!!
Bring her to the computer and have her read this thread>>>> let your man have the kit!!! It's like mowing the lawn with a pair of dull scissors!! When you have a "Trouble Free Pool" you'll have a happy momma ... and when momma's happy ...
I highly recommend the TF-100 kit, nicely prepared and full of testing supplies. I highly recommend the BBB method, and I highly recommend the "pool calculator". When you practice and use all three, being the "pool boy" is a breeze ... now on to mixing alcohol chemicals instead of pool chemicals and the "bar keep" is open for business!!
thepiratemorgan said:
Well thanks to some good luck and a promise to take my wife out to a nice dinner I was finally able to get a TF-100.
There is still a brownish tint to the water when looking at the bottom of the ladder.
FC: 9 (test was only very slightly pink at 8.5 so would this be closer to 8.75?)
CC: 0.5 (the same very slight pink before putting a drop in, 0.25?)
TC: 9.5 (9?)
pH: 7.5
TA: 120
CH: 60
CYA: 80
BOR: 13 (est. from pool calc.)
Temp: 72F
I have a bottle of flocculant called Aquachem Sink & Sweep. Would that help clear up the slight brown cloudiness?
I should also note that I did the test at dusk so I'll be able to check the overnight FC loss in the morning. Hopefully my 2 year old won't keep me up too late teething his molars.
Also the "Sink & Sweep" product says that all settled debris must be vacuumed to waste. I don't remember seeing this on the "Clarifier" product. Whats the difference?
I'm thinking I shouldn't even attempt using a clarifier type product until I get the gasket in the Vari-flo valve replaced and maybe even put some DE in the sand filter to boost filtration. How much is a good amount to add?
Also the "Sink & Sweep" product says that all settled debris must be vacuumed to waste. I don't remember seeing this on the "Clarifier" product. Whats the difference?
I'm thinking I shouldn't even attempt using a clarifier type product until I get the gasket in the Vari-flo valve replaced and maybe even put some DE in the sand filter to boost filtration. How much is a good amount to add?
You are correct. A clarifier or flocculant is a last resort after addressing other more basic circulation or filtration issues which usually clear a pool. See Add DE to a Sand Filter for instructions. If you did add a flocculant, then normally one turns off the pump to let precipitate settle and then carefully vacuums to waste that which settled. If you mix all these things up (i.e. clarifier, flocculant, chlorine/circulation/filtration methods) you're just going to make things worse.JesseWV said:
I was having a similar issue vacuuming- really fine sand returns to pool, while larger material did get filtered out; added DE to filter via skimmer, and vacuuming became much more effective!
for my 200# sand filter, I added a small flower pot (6in?) about 2/3 full of DE- seemed to be the perfect amount!
for my 200# sand filter, I added a small flower pot (6in?) about 2/3 full of DE- seemed to be the perfect amount!
JesseWV said:
Glad to hear it, you won't regret it. As for the balancing of your chemicals and your particular situation, I'll let the experts here help you with that.
Do I need to bother getting the CH up if I have a vinyl liner? I calculated 280ppm as the perfect amount to not cause scaling or corrosion. Is this really an issue?
Ace Hardware has Safe Step® 20lb Extreme 7300 Calcium Chloride Ice Melter (50820) for only $16.99 which seems like it would do the trick.
Ace Hardware has Safe Step® 20lb Extreme 7300 Calcium Chloride Ice Melter (50820) for only $16.99 which seems like it would do the trick.
With a vinyl pool you don't need to worry about low CH. In fact, if you leave it low you don't have to worry about scaling at all. The only time to raise CH in a vinyl pool is if you have a heater or other equipment the "requires" it to be a certain level to preserve the warranty.
It has been awhile since I've posted about my own pool. It seems that since you guys helped me so much I've felt more compelled to help others who post here get their pools on the right track. It also helps that I've had great success getting my pool looking good and haven't had the need to beg for help!
In hindsight I should have posted this thread in the "Just Getting Started" area as I now realize that's what I was doing at the time.
Today I replaced the spider gasket in the Vari Flo valve. The old one was broken down and cracked throughout. I was a little disappointed to hear the same rubbery squeak sound when I turned the valve but at least now I know the gaskets are all in good shape and are properly lubricated.
I've been testing and keeping record for awhile now, here are the results.
5/15 - FC: 9.0, CC: 0.5, TC: 9.5, pH: 7.5, TA: 120, CH:50, CYA: 80
5/18 - FC: 7.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 9.0, pH: 7.5, TA: 110, CH:nm, CYA: 78
5/20 - FC: 5.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 5.0, pH: 7.5, TA: nm , CH:nm, CYA: nm (added 128oz 5.25% bleach after reading)
5/24 - FC: 4.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 4.0, pH: 7.5, TA: 110, CH:nm, CYA: 75 (added 256oz 5.25% bleach after reading)
I'm pleased that I'm not having to add bleach every day. It seems I'm losing around 1ppm a day which doesn't seem bad at all! Today the level was at 4ppm after sun all day which I quickly raised after the reading.
From what I understand I need to have a better handle on the FC never dropping below recommended levels or else I could have a nasty algae fight on my hands.
Ever since I got the pH to 7.5 from 7.0 via aeration it has been solid holding at 7.5 which is also great!
I do have a question about reading FC levels above 5ppm. I really don't want to waste the FAS/DPD reagents every time I want to check the chlorine level. I know that if I see yellow darker than 5ppm on the OTO it's above 5ppm but how much is hard to estimate. I tried using 10mL of water, adding 5 drops of OTO, mixing, then filling the 5mL reading vial with that mixture but the level still read the same as when I added 5 drops to the normal 5mL. Shouldn't it have been diluted and lighter yellow reading half the actual ppm?
Are there any other ways to read FC up to 10ppm using OTO?
In hindsight I should have posted this thread in the "Just Getting Started" area as I now realize that's what I was doing at the time.
Today I replaced the spider gasket in the Vari Flo valve. The old one was broken down and cracked throughout. I was a little disappointed to hear the same rubbery squeak sound when I turned the valve but at least now I know the gaskets are all in good shape and are properly lubricated.
I've been testing and keeping record for awhile now, here are the results.
5/15 - FC: 9.0, CC: 0.5, TC: 9.5, pH: 7.5, TA: 120, CH:50, CYA: 80
5/18 - FC: 7.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 9.0, pH: 7.5, TA: 110, CH:nm, CYA: 78
5/20 - FC: 5.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 5.0, pH: 7.5, TA: nm , CH:nm, CYA: nm (added 128oz 5.25% bleach after reading)
5/24 - FC: 4.0, CC: 0.0, TC: 4.0, pH: 7.5, TA: 110, CH:nm, CYA: 75 (added 256oz 5.25% bleach after reading)
I'm pleased that I'm not having to add bleach every day. It seems I'm losing around 1ppm a day which doesn't seem bad at all! Today the level was at 4ppm after sun all day which I quickly raised after the reading.
From what I understand I need to have a better handle on the FC never dropping below recommended levels or else I could have a nasty algae fight on my hands.
Ever since I got the pH to 7.5 from 7.0 via aeration it has been solid holding at 7.5 which is also great!
I do have a question about reading FC levels above 5ppm. I really don't want to waste the FAS/DPD reagents every time I want to check the chlorine level. I know that if I see yellow darker than 5ppm on the OTO it's above 5ppm but how much is hard to estimate. I tried using 10mL of water, adding 5 drops of OTO, mixing, then filling the 5mL reading vial with that mixture but the level still read the same as when I added 5 drops to the normal 5mL. Shouldn't it have been diluted and lighter yellow reading half the actual ppm?
Are there any other ways to read FC up to 10ppm using OTO?
Simply using more pool water does not change the reading, it just makes the color more difficult to read. You need to mix pool water with chlorine free water (perhaps distilled water) to read higher levels. This works to some extent up to about four parts chlorine free water to one part of pool water (multiply the result by five), but you lose a lot of precision.
JasonLion said:
The color blocks on the OTO test normally are:
██ - 5
██ - 3
██ - 1
██ - 1
██ - 0.5
Diluting with 50% distilled and 50% pool water:
██ - 10
██ - 6
██ - 4
██ - 2
██ - 1
Correct? But there would be more guesswork for shades of yellow between 6 and 10.
So if I take it one step further and go 66% distilled and 33% pool water:
██ - 15
██ - 9
██ - 6
██ - 3
██ - 1.5
This seems like the ideal range for me when I want to keep my FC between 6 and 11ppm.
Are there any tricks for using less drops of the OTO reagent?