First readings with my test kit, compared to Pool Store results

[Colonel K0rn]

Greetings forum members, I found my way here after another member had their pool installed last year, and said that he was using the recommendations here to maintain his pool with good results. Our 4- year old AG vinyl pool was just paid off this month(Yay), and we've had good luck over the years using the BioGuard products from the store, with our chemical budgets not being outrageously expensive; except the one time when we had an algae outbreak, and that was due to neglect on my part. I forgot to change the automatic Frog Leap chlorinator pac while "life" happened. I'll preface my post with saying that we usually keep the FC to 0.5-1.0 for maintenance, and turn it up when it gets more usage or the dogs get in. Considering the chlorine shortage that I've read about, and the reports that having a dog or 2 in the pool is the equivalent of 30 people or so, the dogs probably aren't getting in this season.

This year, I removed the cover to find mostly clear water, but hazy. The ever-present pollen ring around the rim was there. The past few years, there's always a boatload of pollen that seems to indicate what the water level was ranging between. I circulated the pump and filter for 48 hours before I took the water into the pool store to have it tested. The water had a cloudy look to it, and I saw that there was a lot of stuff just floating 'round, like there was a lot of particulates in it. It looked more hazy that I remember, but not sparkling like it used to be; granted we had just opened the pool, and I hadn't even started vacuuming yet.

The test results from the pool store showed the following:

pH 7.4
FC 0.1
TC 0.4
TA 89
CH 147
CYA 97
Phosphates 3348

My preferred salesperson at the pool store said about the phosphates being high is "this is something that they've started asking us to test for, but you shouldn't worry about it". Out of all of the employees there, I trust her the most; she's the one who sold us the pool. Especially after we had another employee sell us a metal sequesterant after we introduced our algaecide that was copper-based after opening. She told her "They don't need that, why are you trying to sell them something they don't need?"

The recommendations were to add 5.5# of Balance Pak 100 (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate), and adjust the pH down with 0.75# Lo 'N Slo (sodium hydrogen sulphate + sodium sulphate) and about 4 oz of Natural Clarifier. I did not have any BurnOut 73 on hand, but I did have Smart Shock (63.05$ sodium dichloro-s-triazametrione + copper citrate). I had most of the chemicals I was going to need at the house, with the exception of the torpedo pacs (chlorine) the mineral cartridge, and the algaecide. When I got home, I installed the mineral cartridge into the automatic chlorinator, and the bottle of algaecide that we have used for the past 3 years and let that run while started adding the Baking Soda, and going through the routine over the next day of letting the chemicals do their thing over the opening days. On day 2, I figured since I had 0 chlorine, it would be ok to add shock, just to prevent any bloom since my FC was nonexistent, so I added 1# of smart shock. The next day, I noticed that the pool was getting more hazy, and wasn't clearing up after 48 hours of continuous pump running. I used the "guess strips" and saw that my FC was 0, and I figured most of it had probably been consumed by any algae that might be present, and what I was seeing was just an abundance, as I was vacuuming up stuff off of the floor of the pool in the AM before the pump was running. Over two days, I had brushed all the walls, and vacuumed the pool multiple times, and wasn't getting any clarity.

I did have the new torpedo pac installed in the chlorinator, but it didn't seem to be making much progress in keeping the chlorine elevated. I also assumed that there was an abundance of "stuff" that needed to be killed in there because I started fishing out and killing more backswimmers/boatsmen the day after opening I figured I had opened a buffet for them. So I added 20 oz of 10% sodium hypochlorite, which is a heck of a lot less expensive than those torpedo pacs!

Today, my test kit arrived, the water is still hazy, and I've vacuumed it 5 times since I opened. Seeing more aquatic insects than I'd like, and got some pretty eye-opening results, with suspicions on what guidance I'll receive.

pH 7.5
FC 1.5
CC 0.5
TA 160
CH 1000
CYA 100

Out of curiosity, I tested my CH again, and it was correct. I suspect with the calcium levels being that high, and my CYA being so high, a water change would be recommended, per the pool math page. I tested our source water, and it has a FC of 2.0, CH of 200, and CC of 0. TA was around 200.

So, that's where I'm at right now. I can call the city, and have them hook up to the hydrant that is right in front of my house, and fill my pool for a flat rate of $100. I just wish there was a way to use some of the water that's in the pool to irrigate my crispy lawn. I do have a submersible pump with about 150' of garden hose!

 

[mknauss]

You can use that water for your lawn. But yes, you need to drain.

 

[revitup]

Our PB filled our pool from a hydrant and we ended up having to perform an iron stain removal and water exchange. I’m convinced the iron came from the hydrant water. I would never fill the pool from a hydrant again.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

To me, never having used all those chemicals it sounds like a chemical soup. Just amazed at reading all those named things you used. Please stop.
Definitely you need to drain. You've been putting a LOT of calcium in that water (probably never knew it- named some slick pool potion) and your CYA (that's the stabilizer) is off the charts. I promise you its more than 100ppm.

With an AGP you can only drain it down to 2' in the shallow end. Otherwise you risk the liner shifting and you don't want that. We can deal with 2' of chemical soup.

Go find a source for liquid chlorine.... aka Liquid Shock (in pool stores).... or *plain, unscented, nonthickened, no Clorox brand or type bleach.
Its all technically liquid chlorine but bleach is weaker and you use a bit more. Walmart sells a good 10% product in the pool section usually. Home Depot and Lowes do too. Check date codes and only buy stuff no older than 3 months *if possible*.

Empty pool- you can rent a larger sump pump at Home Depot or use a small one.... just get that water outta there! Refill pool.
.
Next while pool filling, get rid of the Frog device. Its just evil copper and other metals you don't need. If you have unopened bits of maybe you can exchange that for liquid chlorine at the same pool store who sold you all that *schtuff*.

When the pool is filled add 78 ounces of granular CYA stabilizer to a sock and hang in the water in front of a return... on a broom so it doesn't touch the walls. 78 ounces gives you 30ppm CYA. Then as soon as that is hung add 48 ounces of 10% Liquid Chlorine. That willl give you 5ppm of FC (free chlorine).

Those two *may* be the only chemicals you need. Any others are on a *need to add* basis- Muriatic Acid to lower pH; if you have a heater you may need calcium, otherwise liner pools *never* need calcium.

Then thru daily testing you will see how your pool responds and will add more chlorine as needed. Possibly more CYA (10ppm) as you're in sunny Savannah and that may help lower your chlorine loss to the sun.

FC/CYA Levels
Recommended Levels

Holler with questions.

Maddie

.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

@mknauss Thanks for the quick reply. @revitup I can understand how that might have caused some staining. The only issue we have here is that the city pretty much charges double for sewage fees for any water that we use coming out of the tap, whether or not we're using it to cook, irrigate, water plants, wash dogs or fill the pools. They won't do an offset if I were to fill it with my hose. However... at my request, I asked them to come out last week, and to flush the hydrant because the water in our house tends to smell a bit strong after a while. I think some of the water just sits at the foot of the hydrant, and affects how the water tastes/smells. I was in the back yard and heard a racket and peered over the fence. The workers were walking away from the hydrant, and hopped into their truck. They saw fit to shoot water over the road into the neighbor's yard and wash the side of the city truck with it . @YippeeSkippy Thanks for the suggestions. You're not too far away from me in Evans, I'm actually in Effingham County (Rincon). People can more readily understand your location in GA relative to Savannah as opposed to other portions of the state. It seems like we didn't get much of a Spring, as this has been one of the drier ones that we've had in the 10 years we've lived at this house. Here's hoping we can get some relief with a cold front or two in the next 2 weeks.

 

[DeanP66]

Maybe hold off on adding any additional stabilizer if you leave 2' of water in the pool because there will surely be some left. It's based purely on a percentage basis of how much water you remove, so if it is only at 100 (which it actually could be more), leaving 2' feet of water would mean you only drained 50-60% at the most, so that CYA would still be at least in the 40 to 50 range minimum. No need to raise it anymore until you refill completely and verify with another test.

If you adopt the TFP way of treating pools, you will only need stabilizer (for setting your initial level), liquid chlorine and muriatic acid. That is pretty much it. No more potions like clarifiers, floc, Low N Slow, and Burn out. You'll be keeping all that extra money in your pocket instead of the pool store's.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

To get into the better habit of checking the levels in the pool, I re-tested everything today, and I believe I made an error in my calculations. I double-checked the results and found that there was an issue with the dropper bottle for R-0012 that was putting out teeny tiny drops of liquid, rather than the full-size droplets that I was getting from every other reagent dropper. This skewed the results, obviously for the CH. I performed the test again to confirm, so I have some new readings. I'm not sure if the suggestions are going to be the same or not (pretty sure they might be), just because of the high CYA levels.

I am using the Pool Math App. What a great integration by the devs and moderators to have for the users! Bravo.

pH 7.5
FC 1.0
CC 0.5
TA 180
CH 250
CYA 100
Temp 84°F

 

[mknauss]

If you like, you can do a dilute CYA test to see how far over 100 ppm CYA you have. Just mix 1 part pool water with 1 part tap water. Then use that mixture for your pool water in the CYA test. Double the result you get.

Or, with your pool, since you should only drain down half way or so anyway, just drain and refill and test your CYA again. If 50 ppm or less, you are good.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

If you like, you can do a dilute CYA test to see how far over 100 ppm CYA you have. Just mix 1 part pool water with 1 part tap water. Then use that mixture for your pool water in the CYA test. Double the result you get.

Or, with your pool, since you should only drain down half way or so anyway, just drain and refill and test your CYA again. If 50 ppm or less, you are good.

Thanks, just did that and it was at 70. What would be the correct way to interpret this? I used the graduated cylinder to measure ~15 ml for the shaker bottle to fill to the bottom of the label, so ~ 7ml tap + 7ml pool water + reagent. Results show 70, so would my CYA be 135 or 170 or 240? Thanks for the help!

 

[mknauss]

That would put the CYA at 70 times 2, or 140.

Most we ever suggest draining is to leave 18" of water in the pool. So that is a bit over 60% of a drain. Your resulting CYA after refill will be in the 60 ppm range. Acceptable, and with backwashing you should be able to manage that.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

Currently draining the pool, and wanted to share a couple of pictures of what I saw last night while I was doing the slow drain. I figured I might as well get some use of the water, so I filled a kiddie pool that we use to wash the dogs in, drug a hose out to the front and put on a small sprinkler. It's doing fine for some of the areas of the yard that I have some dry spots in. The majority of the water is getting diverted to the drain area at the back of the property now as I type this post.

Last night, while I was refilling the pool, I was looking at the water with the flashlight, and was shocked at what I saw floating in and on the surface of the water. No wonder the water was so cloudy! Last season, I took the pool stores advice, and added "Sparkle Up" to help clear my slightly cloudy water. According to the SDS, that product is 100% cellulose . That being said, when I opened the pool, I hadn't backwashed it yet. After seeing all of the particulate in the water, I presumed some had just made its way back into the pool, or the filter just needed a good deep clean, so that's what I did.

Here's a couple of screenshots of the video I shot for my wife. The second shows the small particulate which was floating and through in the water. Don't pay any attention to the larger stuff on the surface, I had gotten some grass and other debris in the pool through this process of draining so far; that will be removed once I get the pool refilled and pump running again. The first shows the junk that I presume was the product that I added last season, and was just locked up in the filter. Every time I moved the hose, another cloud of chalky-white stuff would move up and out.

Doing the deep clean on the filter took about 45 minutes, and the majority of the funk is out. Once the pool is refilled, I'll backwash for another minute or so, rinse, and get to filtering again. So, I've gleaned that some people add DE to their filters to improve its effectiveness. Is that in lieu of just doing a deep clean?

 

[DeanP66]

That sparkle up is what we like to call "pool store potions" that they are more than happy to sell customers to try and mitigate the problems. Now that you've learned your lesson and taken your pool maintenance and testing into your own hands, you will never be victim to these shenanigans again.

 

[Gibby13]

#Following

 

[Colonel K0rn]

Tested the water this AM.

pH 8.2
FC 0.5 Added 16 oz 10% bleach after testing was done.
CC 1.0
TA 220
CH 100
CYA 40
Temp 74°F (nice and cool! ) Sometimes at the end of the summer, the temp had to be in the low 90's. If I wanted a warm bath, I go to a hot springs lol.

If I understand the methodology and math correctly, I should be adding Muriatic Acid to lower the TA, and I'd be safe to start with 64 oz of 14.5%/ 10oz of 20° Be. @mknauss

 

[mknauss]

If I understand the methodology and math correctly, I should be adding Muriatic Acid to lower the TA, and I'd be safe to start with 64 oz of 14.5%/ 10oz of 20° Be

Correct on the 64 oz of 14.5%. If using 31.45%, use 32 oz.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

I tested the water about an hour after adding MA, and the pH had dropped to 7.2-7.4 ish. I'd venture to say 7.3 I told my kids to get in and start splashing around, but they're teenagers, so they don't listen to me much My CL was reading 0.5, so I added 16 oz of 10% and then 1 1/2 hours later, it was still reading 0.5 but my CC had dropped from 1.0 to 0.5 so that's good.

I just checked the levels again, pH is ~ 7.4 and my CL was still on the low side at 0.5 and CC was at 0.5, so a dose of 32 oz of 10% bleach was added for overnight. I'll measure in the AM and see what kind of losses I have. It'll also give me a chance to swing by and get some stronger bleach from the pool store; that's all I intend to walk out of the store with. I'm considering taking a sample in to "compare notes". I'll post the results later on. If I continue to see the CL stay low, should I SLAM the pool, or just go for the OCLT?

 

[mknauss]

Why are you adding such small amounts of chlorine? If you measure 0.5ppm, that is not good. You need to raise your FC up to target range for your 40 ppm CYA ASAP. That is 7 ppm FC. So at least a half gallon of 10%.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

Why are you adding such small amounts of chlorine? If you measure 0.5ppm, that is not good. You need to raise your FC up to target range for your 40 ppm CYA ASAP. That is 7 ppm FC. So at least a half gallon of 10%.

That's a fair enough question, and my reply would be that I'm new? *chuckling* I guess it's because I was used to keeping the pool at such low CL levels prior to TFP methodology, but if you'll give me some liberty, I've jumped into the deep end now and added 1/2 gallon. Logs are updated to reflect that now.

 

[Newdude]

Hey Korn and belated Welcome !!

You need to maintain your chlorine based on the FC/CYA Levels. Minimum is not an accepted value. Not for the pros, and 10X that for somebody learning. You will want to target the high value of 'in range' so when you mess up a little, the pool stays crystal with plenty FC to spare.

Don't use that spare FC to be lazy, no sir, it will bite you, and hard. But if you do what you should be doing daily, the summer will be a breeze with the safety net.