FINALLY: Pool Renno Ongoing -- Questions for All

[Wobblerlorri]

I just wanted to say I'm loving this thread! It's kind of romantic, a 50 year old pool being updated and brought back to life...

It's also highly educational, for those of us who dream about an in ground pool one day.

Thanks to Dutiful Daughter for this wonderful project, and to all the folks in TFP who are so helpful!

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

Hi all:

Thanks again for all of the amazing input. I'm already much more knowledgeable than the beginning of the week -- which is helpful b/c we are going to go out and start getting revised quotes.

Lori thanks -- this is going to be a LONG project. We are only scoping it now. For kicks, see attached the existing pool equipment -- yes, its in the garage, and it will stay there (I've read threats about moving it -- but that then affects a backwashing system that is working well etc.

I've updated the signature -- but you will see we have a hayward super II pump.

KD Pool guy -- we will check out Lucas Lagoons. Already your and Allens' comments led to a good conversation. To some of the southern (CA and AZ) folk -- heating the full pool year round is about $2000 a month during the winter just for heating. So I think an attached spa probably isn't a good direction unless heating can be isolated. My mother is still an avid sportswoman at 79 and apparently wants a hot soak after her early morning runs. So let me know if there is a way to heat a spa separately from the pool when they are attached -- but I think we will now separate the projects. Also, on pool depth -- again, the pool has been in the family for a long time -- in fact I was a competitive diver and learned my 1 1/2 and my reverse off that diving board -- also in our area anything that is against code is apparently grandfathered. So will will keep the depth - the slide and the diving board will remain.

I will say, on a different thread, we saw these immerspas: Inground hot tubs & pools by Immerspa

They seem pretty amazing for what we like -- we actually already have a pond in a different section of the back yard that could fit one of these. If anyone has seen these in person, let me know -- but we are going to have the landscape architect run a plan that splits the spa into its one section of the back yard with its own natural landscaping. They have their own covers as well. The pricing is a bit steep relative to what they are -- but our landscape guys are also former pool guys and said the install is cake -- so basically the cost of the install is transferred to the immerspa folks -- rather than standard pool builders. Stay tuned. . . .

HOWEVER -- this is all open -- remember this will start in March 2020, so I'm sure I'll flip and flop between now and then.

PoolGate in MD: This is a family house -- not being sold for several decades, if ever. So this is a pure vanity project for the family -- something entirely for us and no one else. It's part of a MASSIVE restoration/upgrade that began in 2015. So the front is done, and now we are moving to the back -- the entire landscaping theme will echo what was just completed in the front etc. But its been a long process -- the egress had been blocked by a pair of magnolia trees that had to be removed and the roots ground down, the fencing had to be restablized etc. . . . so now we are working the plans, getting the bids -- and will divide the backyard into 3 stages.

Allen -- we will go for sure. I see you are in NJ -- so probably similar seasonal issues. We will definitely look. BTW -- are there lighter covers? The covers we have seen are pretty heavy and seem to absorb water.

Geebot -- thanks for chiming in -- I'm glad the sandblasting worked -- its so helpful as I run through line items and learn about the ways they clear off the plaster.

 

[ajw22]

So let me know if there is a way to heat a spa separately from the pool when they are attached -- but I think we will now separate the projects.

When you have a combined pool and spa you have automated valves that isolate the spa and only heat that body of water when in spa mode. You don't need to heat the pool when you want to use the spa. With a pool/spa combination you can have a large 400K btu gas heater that can be pretty efficient and heat a spa fairly quickly.

I will say, on a different thread, we saw these immerspas: Inground hot tubs & pools by Immerspa

They look interesting. What type of heater does it use? How much will it cost to heat the spa? What type of cover does it have and how heavy is it?

Compare that to Sundance Homepage (United States)

Allen -- we will go for sure. I see you are in NJ -- so probably similar seasonal issues. We will definitely look. BTW -- are there lighter covers? The covers we have seen are pretty heavy and seem to absorb water.

I think the covers are heavy to provide the necessary insulation and not be blown open by winds. I had a Sundance Spa and the cover was on a lift and looked like this:

Sundance Spa with Cover

• ajw22
• May 14, 2019

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

When you have a combined pool and spa you have automated valves that isolate the spa and only heat that body of water when in spa mode. You don't need to heat the pool when you want to use the spa. With a pool/spa combination you can have a large 400K btu gas heater that can be pretty efficient and heat a spa fairly quickly.

They look interesting. What type of heater does it use? How much will it cost to heat the spa? What type of cover does it have and how heavy is it?

Compare that to Sundance Homepage (United States)

I think the covers are heavy to provide the necessary insulation and not be blown open by winds. I had a Sundance Spa and the cover was on a lift and looked like this:

Sundance Spa with Cover

• ajw22
• May 14, 2019

Allen -- I've asked my landscape folk to ask some questions on the immerspa -- the landscaping around them looked fun and fit into design elements. And others like the sundance -- I hadn't realized a spa was important -- but I guess it is.

I'll be back once we have some more to work with.

 

[santacruzpool]

Cover lifters for a stand alone spa make it super easy to open and close even a large, or thick, spa cover.

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

Cover lifters are interesting -- I'll take a look.

Shifting gears -- does anyone have water features/led decorative lights? I saw that Pentair has some fun looking deck jets -- but I'm always concerned that the flash runs away quickly and then results in all sorts of repairs needed. esp since this stuff is supposed to go in deck -- was curious. My gut says that it's a bad idea for a classic remodel that is intended to last for a long time. But at the moment I might as well ask the question

Separately -- does anyone have the pool tied into a larger lighting system? we have FX Luminiare for our landscape lighting system. We can run the lighting for our water features off of it -- I'm wondering if anyone has added LED lights in the pool etc?

 

[kimkats]

deck jets are a party favor at best. They are loud and push the pH up when used. Not worth it to me!

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

very helpful -- confirms my feelings on this.

 

[bmoreswim]

Shifting gears -- does anyone have water features/led decorative lights? I saw that Pentair has some fun looking deck jets -- but I'm always concerned that the flash runs away quickly and then results in all sorts of repairs needed. esp since this stuff is supposed to go in deck -- was curious. My gut says that it's a bad idea for a classic remodel that is intended to last for a long time. But at the moment I might as well ask the question

Trust your gut on this one.

Building a wall to hide the standalone spa is common. I like the idea of only building a wall on the house/visible side if possible versus surrounding it. Since you have a long term perspective, you will go through several spas over 30+ years so don't make the space to custom or inaccessible.

 

[bmoreswim]

Oh, check out the Animal Planet show ‘Lucas Lagoons’ and it might give you inspiration and reality center. It’s like Flip or Flop for pools.

Just keeping in mind that Lucas Lagoons' pools should come with a warning that excessive muriatic acid use is in your future with their usually massive water features.

Do we have a before picture to whet our appetite?

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

Just keeping in mind that Lucas Lagoons' pools should come with a warning that excessive muriatic acid use is in your future with their usually massive water features.

Do we have a before picture to whet our appetite?

All good perspectives. I'll have to get some before photos from my brother. The pool area itself isn't going to have anything water feature involved.

We already have 3 water features elsewhere in the landscaping. Rather, the pool is going to be set within a recurring landscape design element that was established when we re landscaped the front. It features a tri mix of Belgard mega arbel as the base, with a dark Holland Brick done in large format circles and arcs. The pool on one side is bordered by the fence -- so that will become a living wall. For anyone unfamiliar with living walls -- the are vertical gardens, more or less. . . .

The immerspa looks fun and intersting -- in part b/c of the landscape architect, who loves these kinds of things -- but I won't be back in Oregon for another 8 weeks -- so we are costing out and getting an initial deposit down to lock in a pool contractor and we will further rework the backyard plans over the next few weeks. Replacing a spa is a good thing to keep in mind -- I hadn't thought about that. So maybe less custom is the way to go -- but now we can consider all options.

http://www.goodearthplants.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/EIC-Wall.jpg

The entire spa discussion has started because my mother declared she has always wanted one -- so we will see where that goes. The most likely candidate is an entirely separate section of the back yard away from the main pool -- although we could always end up attaching it, or dropping it into the place where a fire pit is currently on the design - we are relatively unlikely to use a fire pit -- so we are considering function. The point is that the forum has opened up a discussion.

The pool, when finished, will definitely look understated compared to some of the photos I've seen but it fits into the larger backyard refresh.

Separately -- I am trying to come up with comprehensive lists here as we start getting a budget together for the pool -- when people talk "automation" -- what does that entail specifically?

I see people talking about their cleaning robots -- what else? should I have electrical run so that we have some extra outlets near the pool to plug in this kind of thing?

 

[KDpoolguy]

Separately -- I am trying to come up with comprehensive lists here as we start getting a budget together for the pool -- when people talk "automation" -- what does that entail specifically?

I see people talking about their cleaning robots -- what else? should I have electrical run so that we have some extra outlets near the pool to plug in this kind of thing?

Automation and robots are so cool, and not gimmicky, but effective ways to make the pool more usable. Undoubtedly your pool should include an automation system, and most comprehensive ones can control your outdoor lighting if you so desire. These systems are offered by the larger pool companies including Pentair’s Intellicenter or EasyTouch to Hayward’s Omnilogic or Prologic control systems. They handle all components of the equipment including lights, pumps, heating, solar, salt system.
The automation panels are now full-on computers with sensors to manage temperature, salt system/chlorine production, pump schedules, all the way to lighting for the entire backyard. The panel is at the equipment pad with wired connection to your pumps, SWG, valve actuators, temperature sensors, heater, lights (the list goes on). As I’ve mentioned, older pools didn’t have these options and many of us avoided a swim or spa dunk because going outside to move valves and turn on pumps and heaters was a hassle. My wife never even once used the spa on her own in our old home because it was such a chore. Now with automation, it’s a simple button press and the spa valves move, heat & pump turns on, and the spa is ready or pool is skimmed by the time I get home from the gym.
The systems are very robust, and have options to manage the pool from an indoor wall-mount control, or a home-based wireless remote or even he ability to heat up the spa from your smartphone from the golf course once you’re done with a round.

The robots are the way to go for cleaning and you should plan on having a GFCI protected plug available 10-20’ from the pool-a good ‘future proof’ inclusion even if you don’t get a robot right away. They can confidently be removed for hassle free swimming and do a bang up job of cleaning compared to the older suction/pressure cleaners.

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

Thanks -- technical question -- what about the other way? We have a landscape lighting system -- it has LED for water installations. This is probably for my landscape guys -- but it would seem that I should be able to have one system to rule all of my LEDs -- the Luxor system we have is both zone controlled and also colors.

And in terms of breaking down? These systems are sturdy to the people here?

We are not in a place with a lot of ongoing support -- there are only a handful of pool contractors in the entire state.

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

BTW -- I did a quick search -- our landscape lighting system is called FX Luminaire. I haven't seen any references to it on your site, but that is our system.

 

[kimkats]

Well you are past my level of help so I will call in someone who should know @Jimrahbe

 

[PoolGate]

Your pool automation should be able to turn on/off your landscape lighting but it isn't going to take over for your landscape lighting's control system. If you have multiple zones and such the only way to control them is if you can plug each into its own outlet that is turned on/off by the pool automation. That is how mine works. I have an electrical outlet controlled by my automation to turn on/off both on demand and as part of a schedule also managed by the automation.

 

[ajw22]

BTW -- I did a quick search -- our landscape lighting system is called FX Luminaire. I haven't seen any references to it on your site, but that is our system.

Luxor is the lightning automation product for FX Luminaire lights. Luxor

It provides lighting control with zoning, dimming, and RGBW color creation capabilities, plus optional Wi-Fi control using Luxor® technology. Pool automation does not give that level of control to large amounts of landscape lighting. Pool automation can do basic on/off to a few zones of landscape lights using its relays.

One is not a substitute for the other.

 

[Jimrahbe]

dd,

I totally agree with Allen... Pool automation would have a very hard time doing what your lighting automation already does.. It does not make sense to me to try and use the pool automation to control what you have now.. ?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

So all of you use both landscape lighting systems and pool lighting separate from one another? I know I'm going both high and low here w/ my questions. I've actually been creating a spreadsheet/punch list w/ items. On the "story" the landscape architect is working up some new renderings. I've got a running list.

Now I'm looking at various more technical elements. My above question was really more me wondering whether I can't just drop some of the under water LED from my landscape lighting system into the pool. IT looks like all of you are running 2 systems -- pool lights and then landscape lights.

Also -- how buggy are all of these systems? Have they all been plug and play without any issues?

So ballpark -- if I am going to replace my filter, pump, and pool heater -- what range are we talking? $5K? $10K? More?

I just read that the swimquip filter I took a photo of is an item from a company that was founded in 1952, then sold in the 1970s before being absorbed by Pentair. . . in the 1990s. Might be time for a new filter. . . .

 

[Dutiful Daughter]

Scratch part of the above -- looks like people still like basic pool lights -- which was my gut. We have an old fashioned giant light at the deep end that lights up the entire pool. Always worked for night swimming in the past, and the landscape plans have 25 new lights going into the deck -- so that's plenty for a night swim.

Also, glad swimquip is still used by others -- but it seems I should probably clean house w/ all of it.

I saw an interesting thread about a rectangular main drain, but I can't find it again.