Fence questions for new pools - Lawyer types needed!

[TotalNerd]

Back to the fence issue which was the point of this thread, I was reading up on the laws and fine details of the swimming pool code for 2018 and one thing stood out to me and thought it was an oversight.

1. The fence has to be at least 48" and built such that a sphere of 4" cannot pass through the slats and a sphere of 1" cannot pass underneath.
2. The minimum distance from the water to the interior fence must be 20". There is however, no maximum distance listed...which means I could...in theory put that interior fence right up against my exiting fence and there is nothing in the code against that. I find that odd, rather interesting they would write it that way.

 

[JamesW]

in theory put that interior fence right up against my exiting fence and there is nothing in the code against that.

Based on the intent of the law, they would probably not allow that.

It does not solve the climbing problem.

They could consider it to be a single structure if the fences are right next to each other.

Is the neighbor ok with adding vertical members on their side?

 

[Bperry]

Have you considered the possibility that the electrical inspector might be wrong? Is she the one who inspects fence compliance for pools? If your pool builder is responsible for having the build pass all inspections, maybe leave it up to them and see what they want to do?

I wonder if installing some metal fence spikes that stick up above the fence line would be acceptable as an anti-climb device?

 

[phonedave]

Back to the fence issue which was the point of this thread, I was reading up on the laws and fine details of the swimming pool code for 2018 and one thing stood out to me and thought it was an oversight.

1. The fence has to be at least 48" and built such that a sphere of 4" cannot pass through the slats and a sphere of 1" cannot pass underneath.
2. The minimum distance from the water to the interior fence must be 20". There is however, no maximum distance listed...which means I could...in theory put that interior fence right up against my exiting fence and there is nothing in the code against that. I find that odd, rather interesting they would write it that way.

305.2.9 Clear Zone
There shall be a clear zone of not less that 36" (914mm) between the exterior of the barrier and any permanent structures or equipment such as pumps, filters and heaters that can be used to climb the barrier.

Your existing fence is a "permanent structure' that can be used to climb over the new fence - it would need to be 36 inches away from your existing non-compliant fence.

 

[Bperry]

305.2.9 Clear Zone
There shall be a clear zone of not less that 36 (914mm) between the exterior of the barrier and any permanent structures or equipment such as pumps, filters and heaters that can be used to climb the barrier.

Your existing fence is a "permanent structure' that can be used to climb over the new fence - it would need to be 36 inches away from your existing non-compliant fence.

If that’s the case, paying to have the neighbor install vertical boards on his side sounds like the easiest path forward if they would agree to it.

 

[JamesW]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/BTO-22-Concertina-NATO-Razor-Wire-Galvanized-Steel-492/956193398

This NATO razor wire, suitable for all types of outdoor use, will be a perfect choice for protecting your fields and property. It could even be used to secure military sites, prisons and government agencies.

The sturdy barbed wire, which spreads to a length of 492', can be wound around the top of your property fence for added security. When installed in coils, it will cover a length of 43'-85'. The design with blades keeps unwanted guests out of your property.

Made of high-quality galvanized steel, our razor wire is weather- and water-resistant, and highly durable.

 

[TotalNerd]

LOL, I asked the city about that and they said no already

 

[JamesW]

If the neighbors balk at the vertical slats, tell them that the razor wire is going up as an alternative.

 

[Bperry]

LOL, I asked the city about that and they said no already

Something like this might be more aesthetically pleasing.

Anti Climb Spikes - Razor Wire Spikes - For Castles Roof and Wall

Non-Climb spikes for residential area and public building roof and wall protection as well as anti bird protection.

securityfencing.org

 

[Desert Dog]

In Mexico, they just put broken bottles on top of the fence.

 

[red-beard]

In Mexico, they just put broken bottles on top of the fence.

Common all over the world. They do it in India and Pakistan as well.

 

[TotalNerd]

So, as an update to this, I did some internet sleuthing and none of the other cities in my local area are strict by the book. Many of them already have exceptions to the rule if its a 6ft or taller fence indicating the horizontal cross members can be on either side of the fence. That said, I contacted an attorney to help get an exception on the books for my city. We'll see how that goes. I've got another 6-8 weeks until our pool is done.

 

[Teald024]

That said, I contacted an attorney to help get an exception on the books for my city. We'll see how that goes. I've got another 6-8 weeks until our pool is done.

Good luck with that avenue. Government bureaucracy has no time limits. You paid a lot for your pool and in 8 weeks you'll surely want a green light from the builder / inspectors and then want to use said pool. Inspectors have this nasty habit of getting what they want and holding the project in limbo until they're happy as flies on dung. In government, 8 weeks is nothing and hardly enough time to make it past the first round of discussions.

If your neighbors are decent people and may have kids of their own, I don't see why they would object to installing vertical pickets on their side of the fence. Some may choose to split the cost, others may expect you to foot the whole bill. Either way it'll be way cheaper and less hassle than building another fence near the pool.
If the neighbors aren't decent, then just say, it's either pickets or spikes on the top of the fence, which would you prefer? The pool's going in either way.
I've lived in a cul-de-sac in the suburbs of Houston. With kids playing outside there was always a ball or toy that got flipped over the fence. More than once I had to drive / bike / walk a half mile just to knock on a fence neighbors door to retrieve said toy. Most had kids too so they understood and were decent about it.

 

[phonedave]

So, as an update to this, I did some internet sleuthing and none of the other cities in my local area are strict by the book. Many of them already have exceptions to the rule if its a 6ft or taller fence indicating the horizontal cross members can be on either side of the fence. That said, I contacted an attorney to help get an exception on the books for my city. We'll see how that goes. I've got another 6-8 weeks until our pool is done.

Your mileage may vary, but I would not get my hopes up about changing your town's laws.

Here is a fun story. My friends recently bought a house in a nearby town. They found out that this town hates fences (seriously, that is why the law exists - they want the town to look open), they have a law that says any fence must be set back 20 feet from your property line (yes, 20 feet, not a typo). They have dogs, and wanted a fenced in yard. The went to the town, explained that they have a a steep slope on one side of their yard (a safety hazard when their nephews visit) they have access to train tracks behind their property (an other safety hazard), they brought in evidence that every other town in the county only requires 6" to 18" of set back for fences, the brought in pictures of over a dozen properties where people built non-compliant fences without permits, they discussed how rows of hedges are permissible on the property line, but a 3' high chain link fence with hedges planted against it somehow is not, they talked to their neighbors and they were fine with putting in a fence on the property line. They met with the town no less than 4 times over a 6 month period about this issue.

Guess who is STILL not putting in a fence.

My advice, talk to your neighbor, put pickets on their side too.

 

[ajw22]

Your mileage may vary, but I would not get my hopes up about changing your town's laws.

Here is a fun story. My friends recently bought a house in a nearby town. They found out that this town hates fences (seriously, that is why the law exists - they want the town to look open), they have a law that says any fence must be set back 20 feet from your property line (yes, 20 feet, not a typo). They have dogs, and wanted a fenced in yard. The went to the town, explained that they have a a steep slope on one side of their yard (a safety hazard when their nephews visit) they have access to train tracks behind their property (an other safety hazard), they brought in evidence that every other town in the county only requires 6" to 18" of set back for fences, the brought in pictures of over a dozen properties where people built non-compliant fences without permits, they discussed how rows of hedges are permissible on the property line, but a 3' high chain link fence with hedges planted against it somehow is not, they talked to their neighbors and they were fine with putting in a fence on the property line. They met with the town no less than 4 times over a 6 month period about this issue.

Guess who is STILL not putting in a fence.

My advice, talk to your neighbor, put pickets on their side too.

Lots of that in NJ.

I recently reviewed all the fence variances requested in my town since 2016 brought to the Zoning Board. None were approved. And when my neighbor brought a fence variance recently to the Zoning Board it was denied.

 

[red-beard]

What's a fence ordinance? I love living in the unincorporated county...

 

[DorsalSpine]

What's a fence ordinance? I love living in the unincorporated county...

That sounds good in theory. Just wait until your insurance company says add a fence or we will cancel your policy. The pool sites on a 3 acre property surrounded by a 330 acre farm. The pool is grandfathered in since it predates the state wide pool fence ordinance. None of which mattered to my insurance company or the other companies I contacted when I considered changing companies. Thousands of dollars later we have a fence.

 

[phonedave]

What's a fence ordinance? I love living in the unincorporated county...

Much like everything in life there are pros and cons. For example, many places have an ordinance on the permissible height of fences in your front yard. For mid block lots it is a purely aesthetical thing - not 10 foot stockade fences along the sidewalk. For corner lots it becomes a traffic safety thing. Sight triangles for motorists need to be maintained. Many (not all) ordinances, just like building codes, are there for peoples safety. Before anybody starts spouting "Its my life / family / health I should be able to do what I want" - if that is the case I assume those people do not want first responders who may get injured to come when there is an issue, or they will be paying out of pocket for any medical bills if they get hurt, or if a person in the family dies they have already made arrangements for the financial well being of their remaining family members because they will not be taking charity or social support services.

 

[chiefwej]

I would wait and see what the inspector says about the fence. The easiest solution is to flip the panels on the areas where there is not a pool on the other side. The neighbor should not object, since you will be putting the “finished side” (without the bracing) on their side of the fence.

 

[TotalNerd]

Yes, that's right folks, VICTORY IS MINE!!!

I have legal insurance through my employer as part of my benefits and city codes/ordinances is part of what is covered 100% so I contacted them. The attorney that I contacted is a sitting councilman in a neighboring city and said he wouldn't take that up /sigh. So, I emailed the city secretary and asked them who handles building codes etc. if I wanted to get a variance or exception. She asked me for what and I basically dumped on her, but added a catch to it that I was only wanting the exception for fences 6' tall or greater (I had two little surprises ready in case they didn't want to grant it). I got a call the next day from the individual who handles the inspectors and spoke with him and he agreed with me that it was common sense for an existing fence which was now getting a pool that the horizontal cross members didn't matter what side they were on provided the gate was self latching and the doors/windows leading to the pool from the house had an alarm. He said he would instruct his inspectors as such and put in the exception city wide.

He then took away one of my little surprises when he confirmed with me that previously the city had been using the 2006 IRC-PS and in December adopted the 2018 version, and that the language from the 2006 code regarding fences was the same as it was for 2018. He also confirmed to me that prior to adopting the 2018 standard there was an existing exception for fences 6' tall or greater. So, due to that he didn't have any problems implementing that same exception for the 2018 standards as well. That was one I was holding in my pocket that I didn't find out until 3 days ago, just before I contacted the attorney.

If they hadn't changed it, I would had my personal lawyer find out the sold houses since December with a pool that had the horizontal cross members on the opposite side and didn't sell their house "As Is". As I was going to force the city to make them flip their fence, and all heck would have broken loose at that point because the town I live in is a bedroom community where 2 of the 7 sitting council members are real estate agents. I'm fairly certain the last thing you want as a council member is to get sued by your client you represented. Not sure it would have worked, and i'm glad I didn't have to go that route, but it beats barbwire

At any rate, this saga is done, I've won a common sense victory for the people of my city. To all who responded and gave insight, I thank you for your input it was much appreciated.

Now my reasons, for going this route for the exception were primarily cost related. Many people who said just put up the verticals on their side and to be honest if I had been forced into doing something, that is what I would have done most likely. When I explained to the city that i've got 390 linear feet of fencing and each 5.5" x 6' board was $3.29 at the local big box store, it was going to cost me just shy of $2800 to go that route he understood exactly where I was going. Either way i'm grateful for the support here and for my city on common sense ordinance.