Feeling slight electrical current in pool...bonding seems intact. Thoughts?

[jza1736]

If it's bare #8 around the pool, that's a bonding wire. It should attach to EVERY piece of pool equipment.

take your skimmer baskets out and look if you have a bonding plate. Pic attached the curved metal would be inside the skimmer and the attached lug would be outside attached to the bare number 8. The lug might be under concrete or pavers now.

If not, look if you have a pvc plumbing pipe with a ground lug on it. This would most likely be by your equipment pad. That could be a water bond

If you don't have either the water bond fitting can be added now.

 

[danpik]

I wish I understood more about electricity =/ So how would the scenario work if my neighbor, for example, was the source of the leak. How would I feel that current in my pool?

back in 2003 we had a large (whole northeast) power outage. There was not a spare electron anywhere to be had. I went over to a customers house that I fixed a bonding problem for and did an experiment. I knew roughly what kind of voltage I was seeing in the water/deck area prior to fixing this. I unhooked the bonding grid and was able to measure the same voltage within about 5%. Now, mind you, there was no electricity present anywhere.

Everyone thinks of the earth as a zero reference for electricity when in fact it is not. Grounding systems that are installed on house electric services are not designed to clear a fault in a residential electric circuit. What I mean by this is... if you have an appliance that develops a short circuit, the electricity that flows on the ground wire back to the neutral/ground bar in the panel does not use the ground rod as it's zero reference to cause the breaker to trip. since electricity want's to return to it's source, it will use the service neutral (commonly referred to as the grounded conductor) to return the current to the transformer center tap which is tied to the return wire to the sub station. The ground rod does in fact also see some of this current but due to the high resistance of the earth, it does not flow enough to trip the breaker on it's own.

due to stray voltages that are inherent in the earth from improperly installed electrical circuits and the fact that the earth does act as a giant capacitor as well as the pool full of water, the pump assembly and basically everything else, the result is there are voltage differentials that need to be evened out. There is/was a safety video out that I saw a while back that explained what to do in the event you were trapped in a car with power lines down in the area. The voltage gradients around the downed wire are present in the ground all around the area. If you were to step out of the car and simultaneously touch both the car and the ground you potentially could be electrocuted. This is because the car is at one voltage which is different than the ground around it where the wire is down. Once you touch both, you become the conductor to equalize the voltage differential between the ground and the car. The advice in the video was first to stay in the car but, if you had to get out the best way was to jump and land with both feet together. However, now you have another issue to deal with and that is there are different voltage levels, gradients, around the car. You need to either hop on one foot or shuffle your feet with them touching to prevent you from touching two different gradients at the same time. Think of a bird on a wire. The bird is only touching one voltage potential. If you were to take regular steps, you could potentially bridge two gradients and again become the conductor between them.

In a sense this is this is what is happening around the pool. you have two voltage differences... in this case the deck and the water... and they want to even out when you become the conductor between them. When you are dry, the resistance is high enough that the small differential is not felt. When you are wet, the resistance goes down effectively becoming a short circuit. electricity in this case is not necessarily seeking the water in your pool but is instead trying to go to either a higher or lower voltage potential and even out.

This is similar to how the hot/neutral/ground wires work in a regular household circuit. If the hot is feeding, say, a toaster the resistance is high enough to prevent a short circuit. If the hot wire somehow touches the metal case of the toaster, the ground wire comes into play and is a "zero" resistance path back to the source and causes the amperage to spike which will then trip the breaker. similarly if you sit on the wet deck and put you feet in the pool, you become that ground wire. however, the only breaker in this circuit would be you removing your feet from the water

 

[TN94z]

So I have an update on my troubleshooting.... although I wasn't really expecting this outcome. Last night, I first made sure I could reproduce the issue with both of my breakers (equipment pad and light) to the pool turned on as usual. I felt the usual tingle if I was wet, sitting on the pool deck and slowly dipping my foot into the water. I then turned one of the breakers off and re-tested. The tingle was still present. I turned off the other breaker so that both were off and much to my surprise, the tingle was still there and just as noticeable as ever. So now I'm even more confused because at that point, any and all power to the pool area should be turned off at the breaker box. I can't think of any other electrical wiring of any kind around the pool. We didn't did into any wiring and had PUPS come mark the yard prior to starting the dig. Could the water just be carrying some kind of static electricity?

To the OP, I still get the tingle with the main to my house turned off as well. I have a friend that is going to come over and help me troubleshoot. If we find something, I will post on your thread as well. Trying to help each other out since we have the exact same issue

 

[tstex]

danpik,

thanks for the detailed explanation...somewhere in the configuration of the OP's pool, there may be a bonding wire that is run around the pool and then back to the e-pad , then to a grounding rod, but it seems the connection from the water to the bonding wire is not complete or absent. I believe now that the water bond, wherever, as posted by a few folks here, is what is missing. Hope the OP can inform his PB to install one and see what happens...

 

[AimeeH]

Rawb

I suspect your concrete isn't bonded correctly. Do the test danpik suggested with wire to create a bond (for testing only as of course you can't keep it that way). If the shocking goes away with that temporary bond between the water and cement then you know it isn't bonded properly--even though your builder may tell you it is.

Then, if that is the case you will need to address alternative measures to tie the concrete decking into the bonding loop.

 

[AimeeH]

My guess on this is that the metal ladders are no where near where this is happening. If this is the case, there are voltage gradients developing in the pool and the surrounding area. If the deck is bonded to the pool water via the railings it may be that the area where you are experiencing this needs some additional bonding to the water. An experiment to try is to measure the voltage with a volt/ohm meter to get a good base line reading. Then with that reading noted, put a piece of bare copper wire into the water and attach the other end to a wet section of the deck where you feel the tingle. Maybe set a brick on it to get good contact. Now measure the voltage differential again. I suspect it will be gone.

Dan

^^^^^ this.

Testing this out will tell you whether it is a bonding issue or not.

 

[h2ogang1]

Hi there. I was skimming the site looking for led light comparisons when I came across this thread. I figure I could try to help offer some assistance. I am a Troubleman/Lineman for a large utility company in California and would say I'm somewhat experienced on the electricity side of what could cause some problems like this.

Electric shock issues are difficult to troubleshoot as sometimes they come and go and sometimes the customer can't replicate the situation but it's a serious matter and I don't dismiss it. A normal voltmeter with two leads is not my tool of choice to begin this investigation. It is a pen tester. The pen tester requires no ground wire to detect voltages and can easily detect stray voltages. There's two different kinds of these testers also and they only vary by sensitivity. One has to make contact to indicate the presence of voltage and the other just has to be in the proximity. Klein Tools makes a dual range model but I honestly haven't used this. I wouldn't spend a fortune and would get one that went down to the lowest voltage for this particular application.

As for the cause...I typically find things are mis-wired in the home. For example: A receptacle is replaced in a home that has the old two wire (1 hot, 1 neutral). When the receptacle is replaced it is assumed the side with the larger opening is the 120v leg. I usually see a jumper between the ground terminal and neutral side (which will be energized now). This could last forever undetected as a lot of appliances and televisions will work just fine like this. CATV man comes out next and installs an new converter box because the other one quit working after several months and per code now he has to attach a bonding wire between his point of service and the house. A good CATV tech should be checking voltage here but I've seen some slip by. What's happening is the three wire plug is grounded to the case of the converter box and so is the connection for the coaxial cable. If there's not a good ground at the panel then it will find the next best location which is usually a metal water pipe. By good ground, I mean the connection between earth and the panel. Code in my county requires 2- ground rods installed when an electric panel is installed or upgraded in addition to bonding the gas, ufer and other metal things depending on building type.

The second issue I see can be either a utility responsibility or customer responsibility. High voltage is run to a transformer that induces coils to step down the voltage to a lower level. Typically 120v/240v for 99% the U.S. You will have a 3 wire service if this is the case. If your supplied with an overhead conductor then you could have two black wires and one bare wire that are sort of twisted together. We call this tri-plex but you could have bare unwrapped wire (open wire), insulated open wire or be serviced from underground in which you will have a 3 wire underground triplex. You will have two hot legs and one neutral. The voltage measuring from neutral to each of the hot legs should be between 114v - 126v. The voltage measuring between the two hot legs should be between 228v - 256v. Anything outside this is considered high or low voltage by standards set by organizations overseeing the utility operations (PUC). Notice we do not deliver a ground to the home. The purpose of the neutral is to complete the circuit and carry current back to the substation. Neutrals normally have no voltage on them until you break the path. So if you have a light bulb and supply it with a 120v black and a neutral and turn the light on then your happy your new light works. If you cut the white wire while the light is off then nothing happens. If you cut the black you could get shocked. If you turn the light on and cut the white then its going to spark and you'll probably end up getting shocked as well. The neutral on a 120v/240v service also balances the voltage. If you have a bad neutral connection anywhere between the utility and device needing power the result is dimming lights, appliances that bog down and can be as extreme as things catching on fire. I mentioned before two hot legs. As you draw current on one leg, if you have no return path for current then the voltage on the other leg will become higher. I've seen it over 190v many times...meanwhile the 240v Air Conditioner is running without a hitch. You can test this with a microwave. Put a glass of water in and either use a tester at the panel or just watch the lights. Led's are usually not dimmable so an incandescent or flourescent is better if your watching this. You can also listen to an oscillating fan or just simply call your utility out if you suspect any problem. If your house has a bad neutral and your house ground is not making a good connection then you will have leaking voltage into anything you house is attached to that can conduct electricity.

Third issue could either be a bad underground utility service or possibly some underground wiring that the neighbor has. If your house is newer then your service is in PVC Conduit and there is more than likely no issue. Some older homes can have conductors in steel conduits or even direct bury. Trees and rocks can cause nicks in the insulation and cause the introduction of moisture to the line which ultimately will cause the conductor to fail. If you have nice sandy soil then it makes for a good insulator for a while and it will sit and cool the aluminum conductor to chalk and causing stray voltages to enter the earth. It's going to have to be decently close. 120v isn't going to travel 20' to the pool but i've seen people getting shocked 5' away from a bad conductor on a 30A future RV circuit going directly to ground. It was only pulling 20A. Sorry for being a bit lengthy and ill just give a synopsis of what i would do.

-If you think its a Utility or you have a neutral problem (dimming lights, appliances chugging) call the utility immediately and explain that you have hi/low voltage. That's not one or the other, its both.
-If its not the utility then look at any new work that has been done inside like the CATV box reference I brought up
-Buy a pen tester and see if it shows the presence of voltage. If so, start with the main breaker. If it doesn't go away and you have a neighbor close ask if they would kindly shut off their main breaker. Make sure the main breakers actually shut off. Some older breakers are faulty internally and one leg is stuck closed
-Look at your location. Is there anything that might be buried around the area. This could be a high voltage line between two transformers, a service to a street light or some old wiring to a hot tub or RV receptacle. You can call in an Underground Service Alert (USA). In California its free by calling 8-1-1. Best of luck to finding the problem.

 

[AimeeH]

Hi there. I was skimming the site looking for led light comparisons when I came across this thread. I figure I could try to help offer some assistance. I am a Troubleman/Lineman for a large utility company in California and would say I'm somewhat experienced on the electricity side of what could cause some problems like this.

Electric shock issues are difficult to troubleshoot as sometimes they come and go and sometimes the customer can't replicate the situation but it's a serious matter and I don't dismiss it. A normal voltmeter with two leads is not my tool of choice to begin this investigation. It is a pen tester. The pen tester requires no ground wire to detect voltages and can easily detect stray voltages. There's two different kinds of these testers also and they only vary by sensitivity. One has to make contact to indicate the presence of voltage and the other just has to be in the proximity. Klein Tools makes a dual range model but I honestly haven't used this. I wouldn't spend a fortune and would get one that went down to the lowest voltage for this particular application.

As for the cause...I typically find things are mis-wired in the home. For example: A receptacle is replaced in a home that has the old two wire (1 hot, 1 neutral). When the receptacle is replaced it is assumed the side with the larger opening is the 120v leg. I usually see a jumper between the ground terminal and neutral side (which will be energized now). This could last forever undetected as a lot of appliances and televisions will work just fine like this. CATV man comes out next and installs an new converter box because the other one quit working after several months and per code now he has to attach a bonding wire between his point of service and the house. A good CATV tech should be checking voltage here but I've seen some slip by. What's happening is the three wire plug is grounded to the case of the converter box and so is the connection for the coaxial cable. If there's not a good ground at the panel then it will find the next best location which is usually a metal water pipe. By good ground, I mean the connection between earth and the panel. Code in my county requires 2- ground rods installed when an electric panel is installed or upgraded in addition to bonding the gas, ufer and other metal things depending on building type.

The second issue I see can be either a utility responsibility or customer responsibility. High voltage is run to a transformer that induces coils to step down the voltage to a lower level. Typically 120v/240v for 99% the U.S. You will have a 3 wire service if this is the case. If your supplied with an overhead conductor then you could have two black wires and one bare wire that are sort of twisted together. We call this tri-plex but you could have bare unwrapped wire (open wire), insulated open wire or be serviced from underground in which you will have a 3 wire underground triplex. You will have two hot legs and one neutral. The voltage measuring from neutral to each of the hot legs should be between 114v - 126v. The voltage measuring between the two hot legs should be between 228v - 256v. Anything outside this is considered high or low voltage by standards set by organizations overseeing the utility operations (PUC). Notice we do not deliver a ground to the home. The purpose of the neutral is to complete the circuit and carry current back to the substation. Neutrals normally have no voltage on them until you break the path. So if you have a light bulb and supply it with a 120v black and a neutral and turn the light on then your happy your new light works. If you cut the white wire while the light is off then nothing happens. If you cut the black you could get shocked. If you turn the light on and cut the white then its going to spark and you'll probably end up getting shocked as well. The neutral on a 120v/240v service also balances the voltage. If you have a bad neutral connection anywhere between the utility and device needing power the result is dimming lights, appliances that bog down and can be as extreme as things catching on fire. I mentioned before two hot legs. As you draw current on one leg, if you have no return path for current then the voltage on the other leg will become higher. I've seen it over 190v many times...meanwhile the 240v Air Conditioner is running without a hitch. You can test this with a microwave. Put a glass of water in and either use a tester at the panel or just watch the lights. Led's are usually not dimmable so an incandescent or flourescent is better if your watching this. You can also listen to an oscillating fan or just simply call your utility out if you suspect any problem. If your house has a bad neutral and your house ground is not making a good connection then you will have leaking voltage into anything you house is attached to that can conduct electricity.

Third issue could either be a bad underground utility service or possibly some underground wiring that the neighbor has. If your house is newer then your service is in PVC Conduit and there is more than likely no issue. Some older homes can have conductors in steel conduits or even direct bury. Trees and rocks can cause nicks in the insulation and cause the introduction of moisture to the line which ultimately will cause the conductor to fail. If you have nice sandy soil then it makes for a good insulator for a while and it will sit and cool the aluminum conductor to chalk and causing stray voltages to enter the earth. It's going to have to be decently close. 120v isn't going to travel 20' to the pool but i've seen people getting shocked 5' away from a bad conductor on a 30A future RV circuit going directly to ground. It was only pulling 20A. Sorry for being a bit lengthy and ill just give a synopsis of what i would do.

-If you think its a Utility or you have a neutral problem (dimming lights, appliances chugging) call the utility immediately and explain that you have hi/low voltage. That's not one or the other, its both.
-If its not the utility then look at any new work that has been done inside like the CATV box reference I brought up
-Buy a pen tester and see if it shows the presence of voltage. If so, start with the main breaker. If it doesn't go away and you have a neighbor close ask if they would kindly shut off their main breaker. Make sure the main breakers actually shut off. Some older breakers are faulty internally and one leg is stuck closed
-Look at your location. Is there anything that might be buried around the area. This could be a high voltage line between two transformers, a service to a street light or some old wiring to a hot tub or RV receptacle. You can call in an Underground Service Alert (USA). In California its free by calling 8-1-1. Best of luck to finding the problem.

h20gang1

Can you agree that if the concrete decking were properly tied into the bonding loop with rebar then the decking and water would be equiponential and one would not then feel any electrical current?

 

[h2ogang1]

h20gang1

Can you agree that if the concrete decking were properly tied into the bonding loop with rebar then the decking and water would be equiponential and one would not then feel any electrical current?

I would say that yes it would be safer. Our substations are basically built on top of a ground grid. This is a large copper conductor maybe 250cu every 3 or 4 feet from fence to fence. Each intersection of conductors is Cad Welded as well and bonded to the fence posts.

 

[Dirk]

Can't read all through this thread, just sharing what I'm learning here about this topic from others, in case this wasn't clearly covered. For you to feel a shock, you have two problems. What is causing the voltage potential difference, and the fact that the bonding is failing to keep you from feeling it. Troubleshoot away, but until you identify and correct BOTH problems, you're not done...

 

[tstex]

rawb,

Did you ever find out the cause of your electrical issues?

 

[1Sammy]

This is very common in boats in marinas. Most home electricians are clueless to this. Anyone with this issue should be speaking to a marine electrician as they have the equipment to test such.

 

[Dirk]

This is very common in boats in marinas. Most home electricians are clueless to this. Anyone with this issue should be speaking to a marine electrician as they have the equipment to test such.

I'm sure I'm just projecting my own lack of knowledge of this subject and the resulting paranoia about it, but I have to whole-heartedly agree with Sammy. This isn't like fooling with your CH levels, or adjusting filter runtime, we're talkin' life and death potential here, and I, personally, wouldn't feel good about trusting anyone but a certified expert to sort this out. I'm guessing there's more to it than poking your pool with a voltmeter. And maybe one of the contributors to this thread is such an expert, but as I read it I can't sort out what is expertise, what is speculation and what is DIY logic, however well-intentioned. TFPC and the advice here can save a handy person a lot of money vs using a pool professional. I'm all in for that. But this is one area where money for a pro would be well spent. Maybe that's just me. Sorry to interrupt. I'll butt out.

We haven't heard from rawb for over a week now. Hmmm...

 

[tstex]

This is very common in boats in marinas. Most home electricians are clueless to this. Anyone with this issue should be speaking to a marine electrician as they have the equipment to test such.

Sam, send us some cooler weather and some rain...it's 104 here in SE Texas and dry !!

RE your post, what type of special tools does a marine electrician have that will accurately and efficiently troubleshoot pool electrical issues? I'd be interested in what tools and techniques that entails ? thanks

 

[Dirk]

I'm sure I'm just projecting my own lack of knowledge of this subject and the resulting paranoia about it, but I have to whole-heartedly agree with Sammy. This isn't like fooling with your CH levels, or adjusting filter runtime, we're talkin' life and death potential here, and I, personally, wouldn't feel good about trusting anyone but a certified expert to sort this out. I'm guessing there's more to it than poking your pool with a voltmeter. And maybe one of the contributors to this thread is such an expert, but as I read it I can't sort out what is expertise, what is speculation and what is DIY logic, however well-intentioned. TFPC and the advice here can save a handy person a lot of money vs using a pool professional. I'm all in for that. But this is one area where money for a pro would be well spent. Maybe that's just me. Sorry to interrupt. I'll butt out.

We haven't heard from rawb for over a week now. Hmmm...

Yes, I'm replying to myself!!

Not to contradict what I just wrote, I'm all for discussing issues of this nature and bringing to light things that visitors here might otherwise overlook. Myself for example: I just went out and checked my SWG's power supply... empty bond lug! And the lug on the pump is completely loose. So it's not like I didn't learn anything in reading about bonding...

So to clarify: you need a certified expert, not just a "professional," whatever that means in the pool industry.

 

[1Sammy]

Sam, send us some cooler weather and some rain...it's 104 here in SE Texas and dry !!

RE your post, what type of special tools does a marine electrician have that will accurately and efficiently troubleshoot pool electrical issues? I'd be interested in what tools and techniques that entails ? thanks

Sorry i have no idea as to the tools as i just watched from afar. I have read post on the boating forums about stray voltages in and around marinas strong enough that people have died. A "little" shock around swimming pools can end up to a bigger shock and that is the scary part.
IF, thats a if, if i had to "guess" as to these problems i would say is it caused by multiple grounds. I always understood that all grounding wires were to go to ONE common ground rod on a property. More then one and you can get a difference in ground potential . This is what i think is the problem.

 

[ajw22]

Sorry i have no idea as to the tools as i just watched from afar. I have read post on the boating forums about stray voltages in and around marinas strong enough that people have died. A "little" shock around swimming pools can end up to a bigger shock and that is the scary part.
IF, thats a if, if i had to "guess" as to these problems i would say is it caused by multiple grounds. I always understood that all grounding wires were to go to ONE common ground rod on a property. More then one and you can get a difference in ground potential . This is what i think is the problem.

Bonding of pool and equipment, and grounding of electrical feeds are two different things. Let's not conflate them.

Bonding ensures that people do not get shocked around a pool even when stray curent are present. Bonding ensures the stray current around a pool has a better path to travel then through the person.

 

[DencoPaul]

Interesting thread that I have been following and hoping the OP jumps back on.

More importantly (not to the OP I am sure), Sammy where is that cooler weather and rain you were asked to send south???

I raise TSTEX from Houston area with my 109 and 110 the past two days in DFW. I did not sign on for Phoenix weather!!!

 

[1Sammy]

Interesting thread that I have been following and hoping the OP jumps back on.

More importantly (not to the OP I am sure), Sammy where is that cooler weather and rain you were asked to send south???

I raise TSTEX from Houston area with my 109 and 110 the past two days in DFW. I did not sign on for Phoenix weather!!!

Up to a few days ago we had very warm weather hitting a 100 on a few days. Now back to normal of high 80's and into the 90's. Guess that is cold for you guys down there. lol.
Grounding and bonding. Don't know a lot about it but IF Both end up in the ground the way i see it here, you can have a problem . I just tossed that in as maybe this is why some pools are having issues? Something like this needs an on-sight electrician and no guessing as what might be the problem. I would be interested to know what the OP discovered.

 

[danpik]

The problem arises when the earth is thought of as a zero reference source. It is not. Power from a panel box can only be zero referenced back to the source form which it is generated. A ground rod on a conventional electrical service will never clear a fault in the circuit. The only way a grounding system will clear a fault is to use the grounded conductor from the source as a zero reference. The earth has too much resistance to carry enough current back to the source. When resistance in a circuit goes up, amps go down and vice-versa.

Dan