Equipment Selection - Comments? Questions? Suggestions?

Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Hi all,
My PB said he'd install any pool equipment that I choose so I'm busy designing my system. We'll order everything soon so please comment.

Suggested Layout:
Plumbing%20Design_zps2d2k9iyp.jpg


POOL:
Pittsburgh, PA
23,000 gal in-ground
2 colorlogic LED lights
2 skimmers
3 returns from loop 1
4x Jandy deck jets
18" sheer decent waterfall
Equipment pad is about 10' above and 30' away from the pool.

AUTOMATION:
Easytouch Pool OR Spa with IC40 salt cell - #520705
Screenlogic - #522104

LOOP#1:
Pentair VS Pump - 3hp Intelliflo - #011018
Pentair Cartridge Filter - 420sq ft - #CCP420
Raypak Heater - 400k - Cupro Nickle - Nat Gas - #014941
Pentair Salt Cell - IC40 - comes with Easytouch Power Center
Actuator for 3-way valve

LOOP#2:
Pentair VS Pump - 3hp Intelliflow - #011018
Actuator for 3-way valve


QUESTIONS:
- It was recommended that I get the 'Pool OR Spa' rather than the Pool AND Spa' - even though it's $200 more (cheaper due to popularity). With landscape lights, that will use 7 of 8 available relays.

- I'm choosing NOT to add a cartridge filter on Loop 2. The suction ports are 4' deep in the deep-end so the water should be clean anyway.

- Is a 3hp pump necessary for Loop #2? The fine salesman at Pool Supply Warehouse said it is but I'm 2nd guessing that. He said with the pad being above the pool, I need at least 2hp. And that I'd want the control of a VS over a SS to control the deck jets and waterfall levels.
 

xyz

Gold Supporter
Sep 8, 2016
641
Escondido/CA
Suggest IC60. Cost per lb of CL is lower, and it will last longer. Yes, more bucks up front.

Not sure why you need a second loop; is this for the deck jets?

I assume you won't be adding a SPA.
 

Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Too late. 2nd loop suction ports and piping is already in ground.

I'll ask for the ic60. Agree. Just couldn't find it on pool supply warehouse website.

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miles267

Bronze Supporter
Sep 5, 2016
483
Arkansas
Have similar sized pool and also opted for the IC60 instead of IC40. Haven't installed yet. Water too cold.

BTW, what part of Pittsburgh, PA? Grew up there!


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Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
21,270
Bedford, TX
Vec,

You can use either the "Pool and Spa" or the "Pool or Spa". You will just have a Spa section that you will never use. If you had a Spa, than obviously you'd have to use the Pool and Spa version only...

You don't really need the check valve between the IC40 and the heater with a SWCG. You would only need this check valve if you had a chlorine puck feeder, because you would have chlorine there all the time feeding back into the heater. This won't happen with a SWCG because it will be shut off. It won't hurt anything, just not needed.

I would get the 520 filter just because your filter can't be too big.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Vec,

You can use either the "Pool and Spa" or the "Pool or Spa". You will just have a Spa section that you will never use. If you had a Spa, than obviously you'd have to use the Pool and Spa version only...

You don't really need the check valve between the IC40 and the heater with a SWCG. You would only need this check valve if you had a chlorine puck feeder, because you would have chlorine there all the time feeding back into the heater. This won't happen with a SWCG because it will be shut off. It won't hurt anything, just not needed.

I would get the 520 filter just because your filter can't be too big.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks Jim. The P&S is cheaper because they sell more of them. It's only $200 more but I didn't know if there were other reasons it was different.

Well, I thought a check valve was required between the SWG and the heater so no gasses backflowed into the heater. But I guess if the pump is off, the SWG is off too and no gasses are present.

QUESTION - how do I keep the suction lines primed? When I shut off the pumps, won't water run back down and out the skimmers - draining the line? Same would likely happen on the return side, right? Do I use check valves on the suction sides?
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
21,270
Bedford, TX
Vec,

Ever stick a straw into a glass of water and put you finger over the tip of the straw and pull the straw out, along with the water in the straw?

Same principle... No air in, no water out.

None of the three pools that I own have check valves.. Of course none of them have Spas either..

Jim R.
 

needsajet

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 4, 2016
4,802
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Pool Size
44000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
You can buy one Flowvis and share it with another plain Jandy check valve. You only read them a few times when setting things up, so you can save a few dollars that way.

If the installation manual shows a check valve between heater and SWC, it's probably a good idea relative to the heater warranty. If you got unlucky and something went wrong due to a faulty heat exchanger, they would probably squirm out of it by blaming the lack of a check valve. With my SWC running it's only adding 4 ppm FC to the flow, so I agree any backflow or diffusion when the flow shuts off is not going to damage a heater. As mentioned, an inline chlorinator with pucks makes for very acidic water which would not be good flowing back into a heater. With CYA in the water, chlorine is not really much of an issue. Check valve would be worthwhile if you ever add an acid injector.

If you're concerned about head loss, it's pretty minor. Links below provide the head loss figures for Jandy valves and the Flowvis.
http://edc.poolsupplyworld.com/wpdf/SA5250.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57436781f699bbfae4ff5dc5/t/57c72830d1758ec19296b247/1472669747464/FlowVis-Engineering-Data-Sheet+Rev+1.2.pdf
 

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Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Jim, I do understand that a closed system should not lose pressure and hold the prime. I guess I just close valves before opening pump lid or cleaning cartridge. I'm still new to this so I have a lot to learn. I don't even have any friends with pools where I could check out their system. Just watching videos online and reading.


You can buy one Flowvis and share it with another plain Jandy check valve. You only read them a few times when setting things up, so you can save a few dollars that way.

The flovis is a cool idea. Can you explain to me what you mean by "share with another plain jandy check valve"? Do you mean that I would remove the jandy valve and put this in it's place? I don't think I'll want to be removing and replacing PVC pipes so I'm not sure I would want to get into that. I'm not even sure how you remove a section in a fixed pipe setup. I suppose there is enough flexibility to move things slightly?
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
21,270
Bedford, TX
Jim, I do understand that a closed system should not lose pressure and hold the prime. I guess I just close valves before opening pump lid or cleaning cartridge. I'm still new to this so I have a lot to learn. I don't even have any friends with pools where I could check out their system. Just watching videos online and reading.

Vec,

If you open the pump lid or air release valve on the filter, the water will certainly drain back into the pool. Not a big deal as the pump will just prime again. I rotate the valves on the intake and return side to prevent this, but it is not at all necessary.

You can always come down and check out my pool. Better bring a coat though, as it is supposed to be a chilly 82 degrees today... :p

Jim R.
 

needsajet

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 4, 2016
4,802
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Pool Size
44000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
The flovis is a cool idea. Can you explain to me what you mean by "share with another plain jandy check valve"? Do you mean that I would remove the jandy valve and put this in it's place? I don't think I'll want to be removing and replacing PVC pipes so I'm not sure I would want to get into that. I'm not even sure how you remove a section in a fixed pipe setup. I suppose there is enough flexibility to move things slightly?

The Flowvis shares a common body with the Jandy check valve. It's screwed on with 8 screws and is a check valve itself, with a flapper designed the same as the Jandy flapper. So you shut down, remove the two 'tops' and swap them. You might get a bit of water coming out when you do it, but otherwise it's a five minute job to swap.

Also, if you want to nearly eliminate head loss from either the Flowvis or a check valve after everything is working the way you want it, you can put a Jandy cover on with the flapper removed.
 

miles267

Bronze Supporter
Sep 5, 2016
483
Arkansas
I recently did this but didn't remove the flapper. Be careful though because I had to remove and reinstall mine multiple times with plumbers silicone grease to get a proper, water tight seal. Took about 4 tries tightening in a cross manner like lug nuts on a wheel. Am not eager to remove mine again just to remove flapper.


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Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Ok...so Flovis and Check Valves aside, does the rest of the plumbing layout and equipment look ok?

Should there be any bypass's? Or is my setup pretty straightforward and easy?

Also, should I have a ball valve on the line to the waterfall? If I turn up the VS pump to shoot the Deck Jets higher, it will also turn up the flow to the waterfall.
 

needsajet

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 4, 2016
4,802
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Pool Size
44000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
The 3-way valve takes care of waterfall vs. deck jets. It can be adjusted to favor one side or the other.

On the subject of ball valves... think about Jandy valves there as well. It's a few more bucks but not that much in the scheme of things. If the valve location is out in the sun, I would definitely 100% always use a pool valve.

Some people like a heater bypass. The heater likely has a built-in bypass for regulating its own flow, but if there's periods you don't need it, it could be bypassed for increased flow and eliminating the turbulent flow of water through it when it's not needed. But then you have to remember stuff like flushing it occasionally and opening the valve when you get back to heating days. I'm interested to hear what experts here say on that one.
 

borjis

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 19, 2014
3,390
Pacific NW
Good choice on the Raypak heater.

My old Laars got destroyed in the winter storm a few weeks back.

Replacing it with a Raypak
 

Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
So how do I run deck jets and waterfall at the same time?
I can definitely see a need to be running all the features at the same time - slide, deck jets and waterfall.

Yes, the Raypak has an internal bypass valve so I'll just use that. We'll probably be using the heater periodically...even in the hottest parts of summer.

I'll also see about controlling the deck jets with Jandy valves instead of standard ball valves - which I had fail frequently on my last pool. But I don't see myself adjusting those too often. Just there to get the four levels equal.
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
21,270
Bedford, TX
So how do I run deck jets and waterfall at the same time?
I can definitely see a need to be running all the features at the same time - slide, deck jets and waterfall.

Vec,

Since the valve that selects between the deck jets and waterfall is automated you can really only select one or the other. If this were a manual valve then you could set it for both, but you would half the flow to each one.

You could add an additional automated valve, but then you would have to get "creative" with how you powered it. The EasyTouch only has four valve drivers and two of them are restricted to selecting between the Spa and Pool, leaving you only two user programmable valve drivers.

Jim R.
 

Veccster

Bronze Supporter
Aug 30, 2016
359
Pittsburgh PA
Shoot...that's a bit of a problem. Can an automated valve be manually adjusted? In other words, can I manually turn it to halfway when I want both on at the same time?

Or I suppose they don't make 4 way valves??? Off, left, right, middle.

I don't want to "mickey-mouse" my setup so I guess I would just have one or the other on if there are no other 'clean' options.
 

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