Equipment for New Build

[DSMinAtlanta]

I don't know the way your installer originally had things setup.

The way I understand things work:


[*]Using the Firemans switch on the heater connected to the gas heater on the IntelliCenter:

• The heater is powered off when no heat and the heater controls are not accessible
• The IntelliCenter acts as the heater thermostat using its water temperature sensor
• The MasterTemp temperature sensor is only used during heating as a safety device for maximum temperature shutoff
• Heater status and error messages are displayed on the heater panel and not on the IntelliCenter

[*]Using RS-486 temperature control between the heater and IntelliCenter

• The heater is always powered on and the heater controls are accessible even when the heater is idle
• The IntelliCenter tells the heater the desired setpoint
• The IntelliCenter water temperature sensor is not used during heating
• The heater operates independently of the IntelliCenter to run when it's temperature sensor says the water temperature is below the setpoint
• Heater status and error messages are sent to the IntelliCenter for display on the control panel and app

Calibrate the IntelliCenter temperature sensor to agree with the MasterTemp temperature and see if the pump speed and bypass valve operate at the correct times when the heater goes on and off.

I would have thought the heater would tell the IntelliCenter through RS-485 when the heater turns off and then the IntelliCenter knows it is ok to change the pump speed and close the bypass valve that the IntelliCenter controls.

I can't say for sure that the heater is always powered on. I know the red light does not turn on until you call for heat from IntelliCenter. And when it's running, you can't do much with the heater control panel because it just says 'RS485 Control' on the display and you can't do much of anything except press a button to get the display to show current status. In a way, this doesn't match up to their guide for the heater bypass where they instruct you to go into the heater menu and enable BYPASS: https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...heater_auto_bypass_valve_replacement _kit.pdf

You have no way to access that menu while it's connected as a MasterTemp via RS-485. Yet before the installer changed things on Friday, I was able to access that menu while the heater was running. I'm wondering what would happen if I left the RS-485 connection in place, but removed/added the heater in IntelliCenter as a generic gas heater? There has to be a way to get this bypass to work per their own instructions.

If it is relying on the IntelliCenter temperature sensor to know when to change the pump speed and valve position and the IntelliCenter water temperature sensor starts reading higher then the Mastertemp then will the IntelliCenter change the pump speed and valve position while the MasterTemp is running? That would not be good for the heater.

Wow I hadn't even thought of this but that's a very good point. If the water temp difference were swapped then I do wonder if IntelliCenter would have closed the bypass and changed the pump speed while the heater was still running. Now I'm concerned.

I think you need to discuss this behavior with Pentair Support. It seems Pentair has not thought through how the IntelliCenter and MasterTemp interact under RS-485 control. If the BYP_VLV on the heater worked properly the bypass valve would not be a problem but the pump speed change still would be.

You are at the bleeding edge of Pentair technology enabling their pool products. And Pentair is struggling to change to a technology company. With lots of technology Release 3 is when things start working. And this stuff is struggling with Release 2.

View attachment 579495

Thanks, I'll try to get a ticket opened with Pentair. The PB owner never did get back to me with a day/time to meet with their Pentair rep and I don't really expect him to at this point.

 

[ajw22]

I'm wondering what would happen if I left the RS-485 connection in place, but removed/added the heater in IntelliCenter as a generic gas heater?

The IntelliCenter will say the heater is running and the heater will do nothing.

I have helped folks fix that setup when the RS-485 connection is used and the heater is added to the IntelliCenter as a Gas Heater. They think they have a broken new heater.

The Gas Heater tells the IntelliCenter to control the heater through the gas heater relay control.

The MasterTemp tells the IntelliCenter to control the heater using RS-485.

Pentair could have programmed the IntelliCenter with one heater device definition and then gave a selection for the device to select the control method - Firemans switch or RS-485. Pentair seems to do things in what to me is more complex ways then a logical way.

There has to be a way to get this bypass to work per their own instructions.

What instructions?

It looks to me like the folks who developed the bypass were a different group or a different contractor then the IntelliCenter or MasterTemp software developers. I have observed before that it appears no one at Pentair uses their products or they should have seen these glitches before us customers. And don't get me started about Pentair manuals that cover the hardware installation with little or any guideance about the programming configurations that we are having problems with.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

• The IntelliCenter will say the heater is running and the heater will do nothing.

I have helped folks fix that setup when the RS-485 connection is used and the heater is added to the IntelliCenter as a Gas Heater. They think they have a broken new heater.

The Gas Heater tells the IntelliCenter to control the heater through the gas heater relay control.

The MasterTemp tells the IntelliCenter to control the heater using RS-485.

Pentair could have programmed the IntelliCenter with one heater device definition and then gave a selection for the device to select the control method - Firemans switch or RS-485. Pentair seems to do things in what to me is more complex ways then a logical way.




What instructions?

It looks to me like the folks who developed the bypass were a different group or a different contractor then the IntelliCenter or MasterTemp software developers. I have observed before that it appears no one at Pentair uses their products or they should have seen these glitches before us customers. And don't get me started about Pentair manuals that cover the hardware installation with little or any guideance about the programming configurations that we are having problems with.

I was referring to these instructions for the bypass configuration: https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...heater_auto_bypass_valve_replacement _kit.pdf

They instruct you to connect the bypass IntelliValve to the heater directly and also mention changing the heater settings to enable the bypass.

• I can't access the heater settings while it is connected via RS-485 so there's no way to enable the bypass that way
• So I thought that maybe I could change the config to the two-wire firemans switch, but then the IntelliValve on the bypass won't get power when the heater is turned off which was the issue last week
• Perhaps the safest configuration based on my experience above is to change it to the two-wire firemans switch, move the bypass to the IntelliCenter, and add it back as a 'gas heater'?

I'd love for someone at Pentair to explain their instructions for the bypass config given the fact that you can't access the heater settings while connected via RS-485 and the IntelliValve won't get power while connected to the heater and not connected via RS-485.

 

[ajw22]

I was referring to these instructions for the bypass configuration: https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/parts-sheets/heaters/pentair_heater_auto_bypass_valve_replacement _kit.pdf

The instructions are version 1. They don't work and I am sure that whoever wrote it never tried it on the actual equipment. It was written by an someone sitting at his/her PC describing how he hoped itw oudl work.

It is unfortunate that Pentair does not issue Technical Bulletins to consumers describing the problems and fixes to their products. We end up doing free product support for them and writing new instructions in the Wiki.

Perhaps the safest configuration based on my experience above is to change it to the two-wire firemans switch, move the bypass to the IntelliCenter, and add it back as a 'gas heater'?

You can. You understand the configuration options. You have now seen how each of them work.

I'd love for someone at Pentair to explain their instructions for the bypass config given the fact that you can't access the heater settings while connected via RS-485 and the IntelliValve won't get power while connected to the heater and not connected via RS-485.

They cannot. Pentair has its internal corporate issues. Pentair is a big global conglomerate today where these pool products are a small portion of the business competing for investment capital. They plod along like many big companies do.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

The instructions are version 1. They don't work and I am sure that whoever wrote it never tried it on the actual equipment. It was written by an someone sitting at his/her PC describing how he hoped itw oudl work.

It is unfortunate that Pentair does not issue Technical Bulletins to consumers describing the problems and fixes to their products. We end up doing free product support for them and writing new instructions in the Wiki.



You can. You understand the configuration options. You have now seen how each of them work.



They cannot. Pentair has its internal corporate issues. Pentair is a big global conglomerate today where these pool products are a small portion of the business competing for investment capital. They plod along like many big companies do.

One question I have about the fireman's switch connection is the manual states to use "18 gauge wire with a minimum 3/64” (1.2mm) thick insulation rated for a temperature rise of at least 105°C. The area the wire passes through can get hot and melt wire insulation."

Would something like this work? Southwire (By-the-Foot) 18/2 Gray Stranded CU CL3R Shielded Security Cable 57573199 - The Home Depot

Do you have any recommendations on what type of wire to use for this? It would appear that the installer had some basic CAT5E connected to it and then routed inside the conduit with the high voltage wires. It also isn't clear how this wire should be routed in/out of the heater. They specifically tell you where to route the RS-485, but not this.

 

[ajw22]

This wire seems to meet all the specifications...

Amazon.com

Your new heater has a different panel design then my old heater. I can't describe exactly where to route the cable. Keep it away from the exhaust and burner can area and run it along the edge of the panel to an opening out of the heater cabinet.

In the new model MasterTemp I have hooked up has been a RS-485 connection.

In my years here I have seen only one person whose insulation melted on the cable inside the heater and the wires shorted so the heater always ran.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Quick Update: Over this past weekend I switched the configuration back to the two-wire fireman's switch and moved the bypass IntelliValve back to the IntelliCenter valve B connection which the PB had previously assigned to the heater. Then I deleted the MasterTemp and added the Gas Heater back. The last thing I need to do is adjust the set points on the heater but the bypass seems to work as expected.

While we had everything powered off, we took the opportunity to clean the pump basket and check our filter for the first time. This isn't the first time we have cleaned the filter basket so I know we followed the proper steps. However, when we got everything put back together and powered on, the SWG had the 'low salt' light on which has never happened before. We had tested the salt the day before (via our TF-Pro test kit) and it looked like we were a little high (3,900). Prior to this weekend, the SWG was reading higher than that (4,200-4,500). After this weekend, the SWG was showing 2,700 at first, then it increased to 2,900 and now it's at 2,850. The only thing that I can think of that gave us that initial low reading was the fact that I poured ~5 gallons of tap water into the pump to help prime it before powering it back on. I thought maybe that tap water confused the SWG but it would correct itself within a day but that hasn't happened. How often does it check the salt level? Does it calculate an average over the course of days? It's only a month old so I'm disappointed that it seems to be this inaccurate as a brand new SWG.

 

[ajw22]

I thought maybe that tap water confused the SWG

It probably did as the SWG does the salt check when powered up and the tap water that flowed through it diluted the pool water.

but it would correct itself within a day but that hasn't happened. How often does it check the salt level?

Every 12 hours.

Does it calculate an average over the course of days?

No

It's only a month old so I'm disappointed that it seems to be this inaccurate as a brand new SWG.

There is no SWG that gives accurate salinity readings over the temperature range. As long as the SWG is generating and happy then the salt is fine.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

So I thought I was done posting in this thread but I'm sitting here registering all of my Pentair products online and just discovered they installed the MasterTemp Part Number: 460737 (Propane) and I have Natural Gas. How concerned should I be about this? How did they get the Propane model to function with our Natural Gas connection?

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

I found this video that shows you how to convert it the other way - Natural Gas to Propane. So now I have to figure out if they swapped out the correct part for Natural Gas? I thought I was done dealing with this moron of an installer... Ugh

I believe this is the correct part number for the Natural Gas Orifice Pentair 77707-0411

Just one Amazon listing. Amazon.com