Equipment for New Build

[DSMinAtlanta]

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Based on the picture above, it looks like putting the jumper in place should be easy. Just remove the blue CAT5E cable from the orange wire nut, remove the tape from the other wire, then use the orange wire nut to connect the two yellow wires connected to the fireman's switch. This just looks like poor quality work all around. I'm also missing one of the wing nuts for the top of the heater. I'm not letting this guy touch my equipment again. In fact, I'm installing a camera above the equipment pad today as well.

And I assume I shouldn't use that CAT5E as the RS485 connection since it's run inside of the same conduit as the power? It's probably not even long enough to reach the control board anyway.

 

[ajw22]

Based on the picture above, it looks like putting the jumper in place should be easy. Just remove the blue CAT5E cable from the orange wire nut, remove the tape from the other wire,

One wire nut and one connection taped. Very sloppy work.

then use the orange wire nut to connect the two yellow wires connected to the fireman's switch.

Correct.

This just looks like poor quality work all around.

Yup.

And I assume I shouldn't use that CAT5E as the RS485 connection since it's run inside of the same conduit as the power? It's probably not even long enough to reach the control board anyway.

Low voltage cables should not be run in the same conduit as high voltage cables.

If he did that he should be not be allowed on the premises again. The guy is clueless and creating safety issues.

The wire run from the Intellivalve to the board looks fine. It runs on the opposite side from the exhaust.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Okay I’ve got everything reworked. I deleted the heater in IntelliCenter and added it back as MasterTemp. The heater fires up fine when I change the set point temperature as expected. The heater now says RS485 Controlled on the display. The IntelliValve for the bypass now has continuous power. The only issue now is that the heater seems to go into an endless cool down cycle after turning off (I checked the heater display after 35 minutes and it still said ‘Heater Off, Heater Cooldown’). And the bypass is not returning to the bypass position (17). I assume that’s because the heater is still in cool down mode? The heater setting has a 5 minute cool down period. I also found a heater cool down in the delay settings that is enabled. Any ideas on the cool down period settings and why the IntelliValve isn’t returning to the bypass position after the heater turns off?

Thank you for all your help!!!

 

[ajw22]

Okay I’ve got everything reworked. I deleted the heater in IntelliCenter and added it back as MasterTemp. The heater fires up fine when I change the set point temperature as expected. The heater now says RS485 Controlled on the display. The IntelliValve for the bypass now has continuous power.

Great!

The only issue now is that the heater seems to go into an endless cool down cycle after turning off (I checked the heater display after 35 minutes and it still said ‘Heater Off, Heater Cooldown’). And the bypass is not returning to the bypass position (17). I assume that’s because the heater is still in cool down mode? The heater setting has a 5 minute cool down period. I also found a heater cool down in the delay settings that is enabled. Any ideas on the cool down period settings and why the IntelliValve isn’t returning to the bypass position after the heater turns off?

I was hoping with a new heater you got the fixed MasterTemp firmware. Pentair had a bug in that cooldown logic. It was discussed by @KevMo @TonyR68 in

IntelliCenter and MasterTemp 400 Communication

Is the fireman’s switch jumper just a straight connection between the two poles? I suspect the installers didn't keep the jumper. Can I just make my own with a wire? Most likely they cut the jumper in half and connected the wires there, with wire nuts. So you can just wire nut the two halves...

www.troublefreepool.com

To display the Version for a MasterTemp that is connected to the IntelliCenter with the RS485 connection:

• Power off IntelliCenter and Heater
• Power on Heater only
• Press Pool/Spa on keypad
• Press Menu/Back on keypad
• Arrow down to Version (about 12 clicks) and press Select on keypad. It is not easy to see (for some of us), but there is a small cursor under the first letter of the menu item as it scrolls down.

The version is now displayed,

You may want to call Pentair Support, open a ticket, make a warranty claim, and get in line to get an updated board.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Great!



I was hoping with a new heater you got the fixed MasterTemp firmware. Pentair had a bug in that cooldown logic. It was discussed by @KevMo @TonyR68 in

IntelliCenter and MasterTemp 400 Communication

Is the fireman’s switch jumper just a straight connection between the two poles? I suspect the installers didn't keep the jumper. Can I just make my own with a wire? Most likely they cut the jumper in half and connected the wires there, with wire nuts. So you can just wire nut the two halves...

www.troublefreepool.com

To display the Version for a MasterTemp that is connected to the IntelliCenter with the RS485 connection:

• Power off IntelliCenter and Heater
• Power on Heater only
• Press Pool/Spa on keypad
• Press Menu/Back on keypad
• Arrow down to Version (about 12 clicks) and press Select on keypad. It is not easy to see (for some of us), but there is a small cursor under the first letter of the menu item as it scrolls down.

The version is now displayed,

You may want to call Pentair Support, open a ticket, make a warranty claim, and get in line to get an updated board.

At some point when the heater was tested last week, I remember seeing a firmware version of 2.0.0 on the screen. But I can definitely check following your steps. This is probably a dumb question, but how do I power off IntelliCenter and the heater and then only power on the heater? Is this done via breakers on the panel or from a menu in IntelliCenter?

I really hope this isn’t a firmware issue given it’s all new equipment. Go figure I pay them $1,000 for this bypass and not only was the heater installed incorrectly, but now the bypass won’t work because of the cool down. I can’t win. The only silver lining is that I’m learning a lot about how this system works and this is our first pool so I’m open to learning as much as possible.

 

[ajw22]

This is probably a dumb question, but how do I power off IntelliCenter and the heater and then only power on the heater? Is this done via breakers on the panel or from a menu in IntelliCenter?

Breakers on the panel.

I really hope this isn’t a firmware issue given it’s all new equipment. Go figure I pay them $1,000 for this bypass and not only was the heater installed incorrectly, but now the bypass won’t work because of the cool down. I can’t win. The only silver lining is that I’m learning a lot about how this system works and this is our first pool so I’m open to learning as much as possible.

Do you have Valve A or Valve B free on your IntelliCenter to move the bypass valve to?

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Breakers on the panel.



Do you have Valve A or Valve B free on your IntelliCenter to move the bypass valve to?

Here are my breakers. I don’t have a separate one for the heater.



When I turn off System Power, it kills power to the IntelliCenter. So I did that and when it came back online the heater displayed ‘version 2.0.0’. The bypass valve also went back to the bypass position.

Here is what I see for the Valve A and Valve B. A is assigned to the water feature. B is assigned to the heater. The IntelliCenter software version is 1.064.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

I’m curious to know if @TonyR68 ever got this working on his. He’s also located very close to me so maybe I could buy him a beverage of his choice to come help me troubleshoot mine.

 

[ajw22]

B is assigned to the heater.

The pool guy removed the actuator from Valve B and put it on the heater board. The Intellicenter was never changed when he removed it.

For the time being remove the actuator from the heater and plug it back into Valve B. It should start working correctly.

Sometime in the future when Pentair fixes the heater board you can move it there if you want to.

I would open a ticket with Pentair support, and make a warranty claim for the malfunctioning heater bypass so they are on record owing you a fix.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

The pool guy removed the actuator from Valve B and put it on the heater board. The Intellicenter was never changed when he removed it.

For the time being remove the actuator from the heater and plug it back into Valve B. It should start working correctly.

Sometime in the future when Pentair fixed he heater board you can move it there if you want to.

I would open a ticket with Pentair support, and make a warranty claim for the malfunctioning heater bypass so they are on record owing you a fix.

Oh interesting, so if I move the IntelliValve connection from the heater board to the IntelliCenter, then it should work as expected and the heater cool down will actually stop when it’s supposed to (5 minutes)? That’s an easy thing for me to do later this week. Would I need to change the bypass setting on the heater itself?

I’ll be calling the PB company owner tomorrow to discuss this. I would like him to send a Pentair rep to my house so I can meet with them and have them confirm everything else is setup correctly. I have no idea if this is possible but I think it’s the fair thing to do.

I’ll also go ahead and open a ticket with Pentair. The PB installer will not be touching my equipment again.

Thank you so much for all the help! If it wasn’t for people like you on this forum, I would have never agreed to build a pool in the first place.

 

[ajw22]

Oh interesting, so if I move the IntelliValve connection from the heater board to the IntelliCenter, then it should work as expected

It should.

and the heater cool down will actually stop when it’s supposed to (5 minutes)?

The valve will move as soon as the heater shuts off. The cooldown is not necessary the way I believe you have the actuator set at 17 on the bypass. Some water will continue to flow through the heater for the cooldown.

That’s an easy thing for me to do later this week. Would I need to change the bypass setting on the heater itself?

No, If I remember you set the actuator for 24 when the heater is on and 17 when heater is off and bypassed.

I’ll be calling the PB company owner tomorrow to discuss this. I would like him to send a Pentair rep to my house so I can meet with them and have them confirm everything else is setup correctly. I have no idea if this is possible but I think it’s the fair thing to do.

I would not count on the Pentair rep being an expert and knowing all this stuff.

Ask any of these pool "professionals" if they have this equipment on their pool? Oh, do they have a pool? Without hands on living with it they don't know the quirks of the equipment they sell. We figure it out being hands on.

If it wasn’t for people like you on this forum, I would have never agreed to build a pool in the first place.

I hang around here because I feel for folks in your situation.

So now can I ask you to please support TFP. We are all volunteers and whatever you can give is a tax deductible donation that keeps the server running.

Become a TFP Supporter

Help Support TFP Trouble Free Pool is run by a dedicated group of volunteers that … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

It should.



The valve will move as soon as the heater shuts off. The cooldown is not necessary the way I believe you have the actuator set at 17 on the bypass. Some water will continue to flow through the heater for the cooldown.



No, If I remember you set the actuator for 24 when the heater is on and 17 when heater is off and bypassed.

Correct. I've got the bypass set to position 17 which should allow some water to flow into the heater per the Pentair instructions. Hopefully it's enough for the cooldown.

I would not count on the Pentair rep being an expert and knowing all this stuff.

Ask any of these pool "professionals" if they have this equipment on their pool? Oh, do they have a pool? Without hands on living with it they don't know the quirks of the equipment they sell. We figure it out being hands on.

It just blows my mind that they have this guy installing equipment that he isn't familiar with. Plus, there are manuals that clearly explain how to connect a MasterTemp heater to IntelliCenter and he didn't bother to read those I guess. Speaking of manuals, he only gave us half of the manuals and he 'lost' the others. Additionally, during 'pool school' he told us that our IntelliFlo pump was 'self priming' and so you could just turn it off, open it up, empty the basket, close it back up and turn it on. That struck is both as strange since the manual clearly says something different. I tried his method and sure enough, the pump went into an error state due to it not detecting enough water to start back up. So we are instead reading all of the manuals and leaning on people here to teach us the right way to service our equipment.

I hang around here because I feel for folks in your situation.

So now can I ask you to please support TFP. We are all volunteers and whatever you can give is a tax deductible donation that keeps the server running.

Become a TFP Supporter

Help Support TFP Trouble Free Pool is run by a dedicated group of volunteers that … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

Done! The discount on a future test kit purchase is an added bonus. Thanks again! I'm going to move the bypass IntelliValve connection from the heater to the IntelliCenter later this week to see how that works out.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Update: I just spoke to the PB company owner. His story is that the installer was "trying to fix something on Friday and changed the configuration temporarily to prevent damage to the system". I have no idea what he was trying to fix other than the fact that he never had it installed correctly to start with. If that was the case, then why would the installer not tell me? I texted the installer Friday about the IntelliValve having no power and his reply was that it shouldn't be powered without the heater turned on and said he made no changes.

The PB owner also mentioned that some of the issues could be because the data cable was in the conduit with the power which is interesting that they acknowledge that it's wrong even though it was done that way to begin with. I told him that I had everything setup correctly now and to tell the installer to not return. He is supposed to be calling their Pentair rep to setup a day/time to meet with me so I can ask questions (not sure how valuable that will be). Then he proceeded to tell me that in his 18 years of building pools, I'm the first customer who has ever asked for a heater bypass so they don't have any experience installing them on a system like this...

 

[ajw22]

Then he proceeded to tell me that in his 18 years of building pools, I'm the first customer who has ever asked for a heater bypass so they don't have any experience installing them on a system like this...

So he saying they have no ability to do anything new correctly? All they needed to do was read the Pentair manuals including one specifically on Pentair's automated heater bypass. And they are supposed to have access to Pentair tech support if they have questions.

But that all takes time to read manuals and talk to tech support to understand what they are doing. And time is money so they will do low quality work and hope the customer does not know better and complain.

Such is the state of too many services businesses today.

 

[TonyR68]

I’m curious to know if @TonyR68 ever got this working on his. He’s also located very close to me so maybe I could buy him a beverage of his choice to come help me troubleshoot mine.

Hi @DSMinAtlanta ,

If you have a new MasterTemp heater and it is on firmware version 2.00, then any enhancement to address the cooldown issue is not applied. I’ve not seen anyone reference a firmware version greater than 2.00, so I guess a later firmware version has not been released yet. At this time, the best option is to connect the bypass IntelliValve to the IntelliCenter then the cooldown and reengaging the bypass should work.

Tony

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Hi @DSMinAtlanta ,

If you have a new MasterTemp heater and it is on firmware version 2.00, then any enhancement to address the cooldown issue is not applied. I’ve not seen anyone reference a firmware version greater than 2.00, so I guess a later firmware version has not been released yet. At this time, the best option is to connect the bypass IntelliValve to the IntelliCenter then the cooldown and reengaging the bypass should work.

Tony

Hi @TonyR68,

I've been reading more of the manuals today and checking the current configuration of my IntelliCenter. The installer had enabled the heater cool down delay and also had the cool down period set to the default of 5 minutes for the heater. According to the IntelliCenter manual, the heater cool down delay is not needed for Pentair heaters:




Additionally, the MasterTemp manual section for the BP Valve states that if you have VP Valve enabled on the heater, it will wait one minute to allow cooling down before it enables the bypass position again:



So I'm wondering if I need to have a heater cool down period enabled in IntelliCenter when the heater has its own cool down setting when BP Valve is enabled. I'm tempted to test the heater again (with the IntelliValve still connected to the heater) and the cool down turned off in IntelliCenter to see if I have the same issue. Thoughts?

 

[ajw22]

According to the IntelliCenter manual, the heater cool down delay is not needed for Pentair heaters:

Over the years and in different manuals Pentair has given conflicting information on the need for a cool down.

So I'm wondering if I need to have a heater cool down period enabled in IntelliCenter when the heater has its own cool down setting when BP Valve is enabled. I'm tempted to test the heater again (with the IntelliValve still connected to the heater) and the cool down turned off in IntelliCenter to see if I have the same issue. Thoughts?

Give it a try. You have a configuration that few of us do with a Version 2.00 heater board.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Over the years and in different manuals Pentair has given conflicting information on the need for a cool down.



Give it a try. You have a configuration that few of us do with a Version 2.00 heater board.

So I did some testing yesterday which has left me a little confused and now I'm wondering if the current configuration makes the most sense.

• I changed the heat set points in IntelliCenter to 83 degrees. IntelliCenter showed a current water temp of 80 degrees.
• I watched as the bypass changed positions, the heater fired up fine, pump speed increased, and the pool started to heat
  • One thing I noticed was that the water temp reading in IntelliCenter was off by 1-2 degrees from what the MasterTemp displayed
• I let the heater run for ~5 mins then I turned the heat set points back down below the pool temp and the heater turned off but the bypass stayed in the open position and the heater again displayed 'Heater Cooldown'

Not wanting to deal with more troubleshooting, I cranked the heat back up to 83 degrees and jumped in the pool with the wife

• We were both relaxing and appreciating the heated water flowing into the pool but after several minutes the water was no longer heated from the return jets
• We looked at the IntelliCenter app and could see that it was still showing that it was calling for heat, so I got out of the pool and walked over to the heater to see why it was no longer running
• The issue was that the MasterTemp display was showing a pool temp of 82 degrees and a heat set point of 82 degrees while IntelliCenter was still showing a water temp of 80 degrees
  • The result was the pump running at the higher speed for the heater even though the heater had turned off because it thought the temperature was already at the desired value
  • What's even more interesting is that the bypass valve had returned to the bypass position
• At that point I just adjusted the set point in IntelliCenter back to a lower value so that the pump would slow down and I could figure it out later

I see this issue has been discussed before in the following thread:

MasterTemp 400 control point issue / Intellicenter control

So it seems that when you schedule a heater function in your Intellicenter (FW 1.064) that you cannot adjust the control point of the heater during the scheduled time. MasterTemp has the 6 button membrane and the newer control board w/RS485 control and is hooked up via RS485. Example... I set...

www.troublefreepool.com

Now I'm wondering if this RS485 connection provides any real benefits. I don't know how the installer had originally configured the heater but here is what I observed prior to last Friday when he screwed it up:

• The heater was setup as just a 'gas heater' and the I remember seeing that the set points were independent between the heater and IntelliCenter
• When the heater was powered on, you could access menu options on the heater since it wasn't RS485 controlled
• When the heater fired up, the display would actually show 'Waiting for Bypass' and the bypass would open up and then it would do the same when the heater turned off
• I did not see any issues with the Heater Cooldown causing the bypass to get stuck in the open position.

I wonder what he did to accomplish that? Was he using the fireman switch? Did he have the IntelliValve connected to IntelliCenter instead of the heater? It's frustrating that I have everything setup per the latest recommendations from Pentair and it feels half-baked.

 

[ajw22]

I don't know the way your installer originally had things setup.

The way I understand things work:

• Using the Firemans switch on the heater connected to the gas heater on the IntelliCenter:
  • The heater is powered off when no heat and the heater controls are not accessible
  • The IntelliCenter acts as the heater thermostat using its water temperature sensor
  • The MasterTemp temperature sensor is only used during heating as a safety device for maximum temperature shutoff
  • Heater status and error messages are displayed on the heater panel and not on the IntelliCenter
• Using RS-486 temperature control between the heater and IntelliCenter
  • The heater is always powered on and the heater controls are accessible even when the heater is idle
  • The IntelliCenter tells the heater the desired setpoint
  • The IntelliCenter water temperature sensor is not used during heating
  • The heater operates independently of the IntelliCenter to run when it's temperature sensor says the water temperature is below the setpoint
  • Heater status and error messages are sent to the IntelliCenter for display on the control panel and app

Calibrate the IntelliCenter temperature sensor to agree with the MasterTemp temperature and see if the pump speed and bypass valve operate at the correct times when the heater goes on and off.

I would have thought the heater would tell the IntelliCenter through RS-485 when the heater turns off and then the IntelliCenter knows it is ok to change the pump speed and close the bypass valve that the IntelliCenter controls.

If it is relying on the IntelliCenter temperature sensor to know when to change the pump speed and valve position and the IntelliCenter water temperature sensor starts reading higher then the Mastertemp then will the IntelliCenter change the pump speed and valve position while the MasterTemp is running? That would not be good for the heater.

I think you need to discuss this behavior with Pentair Support. It seems Pentair has not thought through how the IntelliCenter and MasterTemp interact under RS-485 control. If the BYP_VLV on the heater worked properly the bypass valve would not be a problem but the pump speed change still would be.

You are at the bleeding edge of Pentair technology enabling their pool products. And Pentair is struggling to change to a technology company. With lots of technology Release 3 is when things start working. And this stuff is struggling with Release 2.