Everything will get fixed and you will enjoy your pool. This will be a memory. (Hey remember the time we had the whole power co. come out and visit our pool, you'll say as you're sipping a cool one in the lounger.) :-D
Electric shock felt in and around pool
- Thread starter AimeeH
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kevreh
Bronze Supporter
AimeeH said:
Soooo......your pool builder basically said he didn't add rebar, therefore the concrete slabs aren't bonded? Did he do the slabs around the pool? Someone else can chime in but it seems to me you have to have metal rebar/grid in order to properly bond the pool/slabs.
Code requires rebar, or if it's not used in the concrete, a grid to be installed to bond the decking.
Tough to cite code when the county building code specifically exempts single and multi-family dwelling swimming pool installations from permit requirements.
Thanks all. I'm at wits end with this and really don't want to end up with a law suit nor a 30k electrical hazard.
The PB has had an electrician friend (not the company he subcontracted the electrical work to originally) try to help with the problem. We indeed had stray voltage on our property and this electricion has spent hours and hours over the last couple of weeks on our property as has the power company. A lot of rememdies have been made to reduce that. but from everything I've read here.....none of it would be a problem if the pool were bonded properly to the cement. After all of their work in the last 2-3 weeks they have reduced the stray voltage on our property by all instrument readings. The result???? Hubby could still feel the current while sitting on the wet cement with a leg in te water......both children felt it too. I know from reading all of your posts that this must be a bonding issue, so my next call is to the county to find out how we passed the bonding inspection and what code really is.
Again, thanks to everyone here for the education. And aside from minor shock (not chlorine, electrical) my pool water is fantastic thanks to what I've learned on this site.
The PB has had an electrician friend (not the company he subcontracted the electrical work to originally) try to help with the problem. We indeed had stray voltage on our property and this electricion has spent hours and hours over the last couple of weeks on our property as has the power company. A lot of rememdies have been made to reduce that. but from everything I've read here.....none of it would be a problem if the pool were bonded properly to the cement. After all of their work in the last 2-3 weeks they have reduced the stray voltage on our property by all instrument readings. The result???? Hubby could still feel the current while sitting on the wet cement with a leg in te water......both children felt it too. I know from reading all of your posts that this must be a bonding issue, so my next call is to the county to find out how we passed the bonding inspection and what code really is.
Again, thanks to everyone here for the education. And aside from minor shock (not chlorine, electrical) my pool water is fantastic thanks to what I've learned on this site.
Lexington county? There wouldn't have been a bonding inspection, as there was no need for a permit, thus no need for an inspection.
And you're right in that even given the existing voltage, if the deck and water were bonded together, you wouldn't feel the voltage between them. The 'safety' fix is really to remove the deck and redo it with proper bonding. I cannot speculate as to whether or not the PB and/or POCO might be persuaded to assist in offsetting the cost of this.
I also cannot speak for whether or not the PB is accountable for failure to follow electrical code for a legal, non-permitted build. You will need more qualified resources than me for this. Also, Lexington county may be basing their electrical codes upon the 2005 version of the NEC, so the stipulated bonding requirements may again be different from the current article 680 codes we keep bringing up, which is either 2008 or 2011.
I truly hate that you are having to go through this.
And you're right in that even given the existing voltage, if the deck and water were bonded together, you wouldn't feel the voltage between them. The 'safety' fix is really to remove the deck and redo it with proper bonding. I cannot speculate as to whether or not the PB and/or POCO might be persuaded to assist in offsetting the cost of this.
I also cannot speak for whether or not the PB is accountable for failure to follow electrical code for a legal, non-permitted build. You will need more qualified resources than me for this. Also, Lexington county may be basing their electrical codes upon the 2005 version of the NEC, so the stipulated bonding requirements may again be different from the current article 680 codes we keep bringing up, which is either 2008 or 2011.
I truly hate that you are having to go through this.
Ohm-boy.......not Lexington Co. Richland Co. A permit was filed and there was a bonding inspection before the concrete decking was poured. I honestly don't think I can afford to have all that torn up, fixed,and re-poured. We went 10 feet out with concrete on the 26 ft side of pool and further inside the "L" side. The pool of my dreams is becoming a very sad nightmare.
AimeeH, have you talked to a lawyer? I'm not a SC lawyer and I don't practice in this area, but I can imagine a decent breach of implied warranty or breach of contract claim here. There may be an implied warranty of fitness that has been breached. You also need to look closely at your construction contract. You should talk to a lawyer in SC who handles construction related disputes. Of course, you might win the case, but you still need to collect on a judgment. Also, does the contractor have insurance that would cover this? Good luck.
AimeeH said:
Check with your county to see what version of the National Electrical Code was in force in your county at the time of the installation. Although the NEC is revised regularly, it is only a guideline and local governments need to pass ordinances or laws to require compliance with a particular version.
The honest truth here is that your inspector let you down. People complain about inspections and the permit process, but this is the very kind of thing they are supposed to prevent.
Removing a concrete deck is a pain, but three guys with a saw can remove one in a day and pour a new one the next day since all of the prep work as far as levelling and fill is done.
kevreh
Bronze Supporter
So does the whole deck have to be removed to do the bonding, or could something like a 1" strip of concrete be cut out every 10' then rebar and new concrete get filled in? Asked another way, how oftent does the rebar have to be placed to dissipate voltage between the pool and deck?
kevreh said:
I'd sure try it. If it were my pool, I'd probably find an outdoor ceramic tile I liked and cut sections of concrete out that would could be covered with tile, insert some rebar, wire it to the bonding wire, add concrete to an appropriate depth below the existing surface for the tile, and see what happened.
Say if you had a 6" tile, remove a 6" + 2 grout joints all the way around one side of the pool so you'd have a tile stripe. If it helped but didn't fix it completely, add another a few feet away.
Following John T's lead. Here's what I propose. The code says that where there's no reinforcing steel in the concrete, there should be a #8 bare copper wire 18" to 24" from the pool wall following the contour of the pool buried under the concrete all the way around the pool. And while that ship has sailed, I would saw cut a 3/16" wide 2" deep channel 18" from the pool wall all around the pool and bury a #8 copper wire in it I'd then have the cut grouted with a contrasting color to the deck. If they did a good job it'd look like it was supposed to be there and it should then bond the decking.
I think it'd be a better alternative to tearing up the deck and repouring it.
With that, or John T's tile proposal, you may get the PB to buy-in to fixing it. They're most likely not going to go along with ripping the entire deck up and repouring. I would however get the buy-in from the inspector before agreeing to anything.
I think it'd be a better alternative to tearing up the deck and repouring it.
With that, or John T's tile proposal, you may get the PB to buy-in to fixing it. They're most likely not going to go along with ripping the entire deck up and repouring. I would however get the buy-in from the inspector before agreeing to anything.
If you had and passed a bonding inspection, then maybe, just maybe there is a bonding loop around your pool, and you may just need to bond the water. There should be something conductive with at least 9 sq in. of surface in contact with the water and connected to the bonding grid. If you don't have this, then even if the perimiter of your pool were bonded there could still be a problem relative to the water.
There are special (read: expensive) stainless steel pipe fittings with binding posts to which a bond wire can be connected, and some folks have made up "water bond" fittings by coiling up 9 sq. in. equivalance of #8 copper wire inside PVC pipe and through a hole in the pipe, which is sealed, and connected to the grid. Maybe you could just insert a section of copper pipe in your plumbing and bond it using a grounding clamp to attach a bonding wire.
There are special (read: expensive) stainless steel pipe fittings with binding posts to which a bond wire can be connected, and some folks have made up "water bond" fittings by coiling up 9 sq. in. equivalance of #8 copper wire inside PVC pipe and through a hole in the pipe, which is sealed, and connected to the grid. Maybe you could just insert a section of copper pipe in your plumbing and bond it using a grounding clamp to attach a bonding wire.
I'd see if there is something designed for the purpose.
With the elevated chlorine levels in pool water, any copper pipe anywhere in the line will corrode badly.
If there is not something made for the purpose, and provided that you have a stainless steel rail starting above grade and landing below the water level, then you already have something perfect to bond to. However you find a way to to bond to your deck - you can connect the other end to a stainless rail.
With the elevated chlorine levels in pool water, any copper pipe anywhere in the line will corrode badly.
If there is not something made for the purpose, and provided that you have a stainless steel rail starting above grade and landing below the water level, then you already have something perfect to bond to. However you find a way to to bond to your deck - you can connect the other end to a stainless rail.
etbrown4, copper pipes can be used with swimming pools. They are very sensitive to low PH, but don't have a problem with chlorine. It is common to find several decade old pools with copper pipes still in use.
I am having the same exact problem. I am starting my troubleshooting today (check my post) I have already determined my booster pump is NOT grounded and will remedy that today. But if that isn't it I was told to check for faulty GFI breakers. Has your problem been found yet?
Hi Navywife,
our problem has not been solved. I, like you am trying to understand everything I've read here as well as everything the electrician has told me (I know a lot more now than I did a month ago).
Here is where we are........I think we are stuck with it unless we at our own expense tear up the concrete.
I talked to another PB Friday about the situation and asked about bonding the pool to or with the concrete. Stating that I'd read that if there were no rebar then they couldn't properly be bonded. He explained to me that in this area, they generally DON'T put rebar down for cement around a vinyl lined pool (but do with any other type of plaster and bond that with rebar). We passed our bonding inspection before the concrete deck was poured (last July). He asked me what type of coping we had and I explained that we had the cantelieverd (sp?) cement that covered the coping and he explained that the cement deck in this case should be touching the metal frame of the pool then. This year I have now had an electrician spend somewhere between 20-40 hours with our problem (and so far not billing us) and had confirmed that everything is bonded well as it should be. We have had our power company out here on at least 3 or 4 seperate occasions and they confirmed that the equipment was all bonded and couldn't have been grounded better. Maybe it is county code that needs to be changed.
The power company has confirmed there was/is a problem with stray voltage on our property. They have installed several more ground rods. I last talked to the electrician last Thursday I think it was and I've tried to make it a habit of writing down exactly what he tells me since so much of it may as well be in Chinese to me. I believe (don't have my notes on hand) he last said that prior to the work they did last week they were measuring 225 ohms coming from the "neutral" off the power line that feeds our property and after putting in some more ground rods at that pole (even a new one at one of our meters) they got that reading down to 2 ohms. This is the same electrician that disconnected all of our equipment from the power grid and the ground feeling that we weren't safe (leaving me fearing a green swamp in a day or two). After the reading he was getting last week (none at the pool and deck and only the 2 ohms from the neutral at the poos) he reconnected everything and we still have a "shocking," sparkling oasis......pun intended. We still feel the same thing. I sat on the cement deck in a wet swimsuit yesterday and continued feeling stinging on my leg where I had a nick. We had company yesterday and as I was telling our friend about it she said "really?" and reached for the metal rope hool that is partially submurged and quickly pulled her hand back having been shocked (she had hangnails). The funny or ironic thing is that nobody from the power company nor the electrician has been able to replicate the "feeling" by putting hands in the water and touching wet cement. The problem is distinctly more noticable when wet.......today I sat on the cement not having gotten in the pool yet and dipped my legs in just like yesterday and didn't notice it so much. Sorry for rambling, but you asked
our problem has not been solved. I, like you am trying to understand everything I've read here as well as everything the electrician has told me (I know a lot more now than I did a month ago).
Here is where we are........I think we are stuck with it unless we at our own expense tear up the concrete.
I talked to another PB Friday about the situation and asked about bonding the pool to or with the concrete. Stating that I'd read that if there were no rebar then they couldn't properly be bonded. He explained to me that in this area, they generally DON'T put rebar down for cement around a vinyl lined pool (but do with any other type of plaster and bond that with rebar). We passed our bonding inspection before the concrete deck was poured (last July). He asked me what type of coping we had and I explained that we had the cantelieverd (sp?) cement that covered the coping and he explained that the cement deck in this case should be touching the metal frame of the pool then. This year I have now had an electrician spend somewhere between 20-40 hours with our problem (and so far not billing us) and had confirmed that everything is bonded well as it should be. We have had our power company out here on at least 3 or 4 seperate occasions and they confirmed that the equipment was all bonded and couldn't have been grounded better. Maybe it is county code that needs to be changed.
The power company has confirmed there was/is a problem with stray voltage on our property. They have installed several more ground rods. I last talked to the electrician last Thursday I think it was and I've tried to make it a habit of writing down exactly what he tells me since so much of it may as well be in Chinese to me. I believe (don't have my notes on hand) he last said that prior to the work they did last week they were measuring 225 ohms coming from the "neutral" off the power line that feeds our property and after putting in some more ground rods at that pole (even a new one at one of our meters) they got that reading down to 2 ohms. This is the same electrician that disconnected all of our equipment from the power grid and the ground feeling that we weren't safe (leaving me fearing a green swamp in a day or two). After the reading he was getting last week (none at the pool and deck and only the 2 ohms from the neutral at the poos) he reconnected everything and we still have a "shocking," sparkling oasis......pun intended. We still feel the same thing. I sat on the cement deck in a wet swimsuit yesterday and continued feeling stinging on my leg where I had a nick. We had company yesterday and as I was telling our friend about it she said "really?" and reached for the metal rope hool that is partially submurged and quickly pulled her hand back having been shocked (she had hangnails). The funny or ironic thing is that nobody from the power company nor the electrician has been able to replicate the "feeling" by putting hands in the water and touching wet cement. The problem is distinctly more noticable when wet.......today I sat on the cement not having gotten in the pool yet and dipped my legs in just like yesterday and didn't notice it so much. Sorry for rambling, but you asked
I guess you have one of two situations.
1) All the metal parts and the water are at one potential, and the deck itself is at another.
2) The bonded metal parts are at one potential (and the deck may be close to that) and the water is at another.
If 2, bonding the water may help. If there is any way to get a conductive metal section of pipe in your equipment somewhere and connect it to the bonding wire which comes out of the ground and connects to the outside of your pump motor, you may be able to mitigate the voltage. It is probably the cheapest thing you can try.
1) All the metal parts and the water are at one potential, and the deck itself is at another.
2) The bonded metal parts are at one potential (and the deck may be close to that) and the water is at another.
If 2, bonding the water may help. If there is any way to get a conductive metal section of pipe in your equipment somewhere and connect it to the bonding wire which comes out of the ground and connects to the outside of your pump motor, you may be able to mitigate the voltage. It is probably the cheapest thing you can try.
Hi Aimee,
That wasn't rambling at all. We're pretty much in the same boat, though we bought this house with the pool already installed. I've tried putting the voltage meter in the pool and turning off he breakers one by one and nothing. No change. Today our power went out on our street and we could still feel the stinging where we had cuts. My daughter had just shaved her legs and then sat her wet butt on the concrete and quickly got up because it made her legs tingle.
If the deck is wet and you touch both the water and deck it happens, but if you are just wet on the concrete deck, nothing. I too, like you have a ton of concrete poured around my pool, probably over 20 ft by the shallow end and at least 6 ft on all sides but the far side (about 3 there) and am not sure what to do next. I guess call the power company or a PB (though not the one I had do the pool inspection!). Though as someone mentioned somewhere the pump may have a short so maybe I'll replace that first. I talked to a couple electricians and (friend of the family and ex-husband) they told me things to check but nothing they can do over the phone from CT.
I don't have a grounding rod over at the pump area and the booster pump and the SWCG weren't bonded so we did that yesterday (didn't change anything). I am going to look and see who we have in the area for PB's and see what they say. I had one electrician out that quoted me a price to look at the setup, that didn't include fixing a thing and my electrician people said stay away from him. The local pool store didn't have a reference to give me for an electrician that specializes in pools. Did you have a regular electrician do the grounding?
Deb
That wasn't rambling at all. We're pretty much in the same boat, though we bought this house with the pool already installed. I've tried putting the voltage meter in the pool and turning off he breakers one by one and nothing. No change. Today our power went out on our street and we could still feel the stinging where we had cuts. My daughter had just shaved her legs and then sat her wet butt on the concrete and quickly got up because it made her legs tingle.
If the deck is wet and you touch both the water and deck it happens, but if you are just wet on the concrete deck, nothing. I too, like you have a ton of concrete poured around my pool, probably over 20 ft by the shallow end and at least 6 ft on all sides but the far side (about 3 there) and am not sure what to do next. I guess call the power company or a PB (though not the one I had do the pool inspection!). Though as someone mentioned somewhere the pump may have a short so maybe I'll replace that first. I talked to a couple electricians and (friend of the family and ex-husband) they told me things to check but nothing they can do over the phone from CT.
I don't have a grounding rod over at the pump area and the booster pump and the SWCG weren't bonded so we did that yesterday (didn't change anything). I am going to look and see who we have in the area for PB's and see what they say. I had one electrician out that quoted me a price to look at the setup, that didn't include fixing a thing and my electrician people said stay away from him. The local pool store didn't have a reference to give me for an electrician that specializes in pools. Did you have a regular electrician do the grounding?
Deb
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