Design and PB Choice

[Stoopalini]

I'm starting this thread to track my experiences and options with the various PBs I am working with on proposals, and to get much valued feedback from this wonderful community

We live in central Texas, and want a pool for general family recreation. It's me, my wife, and our two kids (11 y/o son, 13 y/o daughter). We really want a natural looking pool, so not geometric and clean lines .. but more free form, with natural stone and even boulders around parts of the perimeter. My wife says it like this .... "I want it to be like I'm walking through the forest and came across this beautiful swimming hole in the middle of nature.". We do want a water feature, something like a water flow down tiered rocks. Not a water fall, but more like a single point of exit for the water, and 3-4 or 5 different pathways for the water to flow down to the pool.

Our home is in the country, outside of any city limits. We're told this means we don't need any permits, and we don't have any HOA to deal with either. We're also a cash customer, so I hope these things would allow our project to proceed at a good pace; not having to deal with financing, or permits, or HOA approval, etc ...

So that gives you a bit of where we are coming from. It seems we decided to get a pool right at the same time as everyone else in a 100 mile radius though! One very large pool builder told us they are usually working 120 or so leads this time of year, but this year, they have over 900 leads they are working on! So I expect we have probably missed the mark to get something finished before the swimming season is over for this year.

We started this journey with no pool knowledge what-so-ever, except I grew up with a large in ground pool in upstate NY. It was a liner pool, and I wasn't old enough to understand anything about it though.

So we've spoken to friends and family, asking for recommendations. Based on that, we reached out to four PBs. Three are gunite only, and the 4th is fiberglass only. I wanted the fiberglass option to be included, so we can make an informed decision; but gunite seems to be the standard around here? All 4 PBs have been out to the house for the initial consult, and I'm currently awaiting proposals.

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PB#1 is a mom and pop who has been around for about 25 years. The owner arrived with a preliminary design and cost breakdown, based solely on our property survey (which I emailed to all 4 PBs). I thought this was a great approach on his part, especially for a customer who is just learning about pool building. He was genuinely a nice guy, and took the time to answer our questions.

Here is the initial cost breakdown he provided. I realize when we add decking and other options/features, this will change significantly, but I thought it was a good start. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the design this is based on, as we just viewed it on his laptop while he was here.



I just received an updated design from him based on our consult, and have sent feedback on it. But no cost estimate on the updated design yet.
This is his updated design. It's 36'8" x 18', and has the weird angle off of the house due to some existing trees to the right side (not shows on the cad drawing).



We think it's a good start, and asked him to modify it a bit before pricing it out. Here is what we sent for modifying:



We're not too sure about the bubbler on the tanning ledge, but are concerned the water would be too warm on the ledge, and dirt would collect there, if the bubbler wasn't present. Are these valid concerns?


PB#2 is owner operated as well, and has been around for about 28 years. He immediately understood our vision, but made comments on pricing which makes us think he's going to come out above the others. Here is the initial design he sent:



This one requires taking down those trees that PB#1 worked around, and we're ok with that. We really like this one a lot better, but that could just be because there's a lot more landscaping worked into the image?

One thing I thought of was maintenance. Will having rock on the coping cause an issue for regular maintenance, or do the robot cleaners work well enough where I won't need to walk the perimeter with a long vacuum pole?

PB#3 is the largest one we spoke to, and has an elaborate process. He said we will get an appointment in about 10 days, to come to their offices and view their proposal. I expect these guys to be the most cost effective, but also expect their options to be most limited.

PB#4 is the fiberglass option. My wife is very hesitant on fiberglass, I think due to preconceived notions. I took her (and the kids) to their facility on Saturday, so we could see the molds in person. I think they are fine, and would be a good option if it meant a more cost effective approach. But my wife says they remid her of the builder grade shower/tub inserts, and doesn't think it'll fee like a "quality pool". We're waiting on their proposal as well.

In terms of equipment, none of them want to do salt except PB#4, who said it's a great option for fiberglass pools. But then he said because our house has limestone exterior, that it's not recommended. He said the salt water would etch the outside of the house and make it look very bad. Is this true? We thought a salt water chlorine generator would be the way to go, but if it's going to cause an issue with the limestone, I guess it's not.

I guess that's it for now, I appreciate any advice/guidance, and will continue to update this thread as we move along

 

[kimkats]

Hi and welcome to TFP! I love your intro. It sure did help me see who you are and what you want!

So lets talk about these PBs. The first two-do they have their own crews or sub the work out? The question should be asked of #3 but my guess is he subs out for sure but could be wrong.

So what is up with the WC $??? He should already have that and it be paid for so.........

the water would be too warm on the ledge, and dirt would collect there, if the bubbler wasn't present. Are these valid concerns?

You can put a return on the shelf that if pointed just right will push the stuff off and help mix the water there with the rest of the water!

He said the salt water would etch the outside of the house and make it look very bad. Is this true? We thought a salt water chlorine generator would be the way to go, but if it's going to cause an issue with the limestone, I guess it's not.

WHY??? What is it with TX and salt/limestone????? Nope he is wrong............if it is lower grade limestone it will flake NO MATTER WHAT!

Now lets talk about the designs...........I LOVE the look of #2 and how it works better as a "swimming" pool. It has an open swim lane. BUT those pretty stone on the back side will make it hard to brush that wall AND you will need some kind of finger ledge or such just in case someone gets tired in that area.

Kim

 

[Stoopalini]

PB#2 does most of the work in house, but he said he does use a couple of subs (electric, plumbing, etc ...). Not sure on PB#1, as I didn't know to ask when we met with him. Certainly, PB#3 uses all subs, but he said they have regular subs who only work for them, since they can keep them so busy.

I asked PB#1 what the W.C. line was for, but haven't received an answer yet. Is that workman's compensation insurance? If so, not sure why there would be a line for that?

Not sure what's up with the salt ? Our home's exterior is the typical central Texas rough limestone. It's the stuff which leaves your hand with white chalky film on it if you rub your hand against it. I've also heard of the salt water causing anything metal near the pool to rust. Is that a concern?

I agree PB#2's design looks awesome! And actually, we just got his bid tonight. He didn't itemize anything though, but there is a note which says he will provide a cost breakdown at time of installation. That makes is tough to compare to other bids. I'll end up calling him tomorrow to see if he's flexible on that.

Here are the details of PB#2's proposal. Not sure if this long picture will work .. let's see.

I get the sense this guy builds a REALLY strong pool ... 1/2" rebar, 9" on center, with 10"-12" floor and 12"-18" walls seems pretty beefy to me. I know the large builder only goes to 10" walls, and when I told him a competitor stated up to 18", he said I must have misheard; because no one would go that thick.

I assume the gunite wall thickness directly correlates to the strength and longevity of the pool?

Any advice/input I can get on the below breakdown would certainly be appreciated.

 

[kimkats]

regular subs who only work for them

How many pools do they do at one time? and I am willing to bet the subs DO work for other builders....

Is that workman's compensation insurance

That is what I think it is.

I've also heard of the salt water causing anything metal near the pool to rust. Is that a concern?

There is a LOT less salt in your pool then in the ocean.......just saying...........it is NOT a concern. I will also tell you that liquid chlorine also adds salt to your pool so your pool WILL end up with some salt in it in the end.

but there is a note which says he will provide a cost breakdown at time of installation. That makes is tough to compare to other bids.

Nope...........NEED the break down now.

You also need model numbers for all of the equpment.

You also need an overflow pipe for the heavy rains you get some days.

I assume the gunite wall thickness directly correlates to the strength and longevity of the pool?

Not really. The standarn 8" to 10" is fine. The other is just hype. The steel is where the strength comes from.

Now I am going to go over the specs shared on the long line:

-Depth-you want to go 4' deep in the shallow end. 3.5' is too shallow to do a good crawl stroke in without scraping your knuckles. 4' will also ease the slope to the deeper end.

-re-saying this one-model numbers are a MUST

-in-line chlorinator is a no go. The tablets/pucks are okay for short term like weekend get aways but over time they add extra stuff to your water (CYA or CH) that does not go away with time. Once they get to high you will have to drain and add some of your water.

-I like the valves they listed! Do NOT want the ball valves as they have to be cut out to replace. Ask for unions on either side of all equipment to aid in service as needed.

-ask for a light over the equipment pad. You will thank me the first time you have to go out there at dark time.

 

[Stoopalini]

How many pools do they do at one time? and I am willing to bet the subs DO work for other builders....

Not sure, but I'm sure it's a lot. PB#3 is the only one who would even have a chance to finish with a week or two left in the swim season.

One thing I have going for me is I work from home (since 2010 actually), and am typically a big DIY guy. So I am knowledgeable and capable with electric, plumbing, and even structural. I actually considered GC'ing the pool build myself, but with such a big investment, I'm hesitant to do it. I mention this only because I'll be at home while the build is going, and have enough base knowledge to guide things along the way. For example, I'll put PVC chases into the decking forms, for landscape lighting and speakers, before they actually pour the deck. So I can DIY the landscape lights and audio speakers after the pool build is complete, etc ...

I'm considering having the PB just plumb and wire for the water feature, so I can DIY that piece as well, after the pool is completed. Since it seems I can save considerable amount doing it that way.

There is a LOT less salt in your pool then in the ocean.......just saying...........it is NOT a concern. I will also tell you that liquid chlorine also adds salt to your pool so your pool WILL end up with some salt in it in the end.

Thanks, good to know. Seems like SWG is the way to go. My wife would really like the softer water feel, and I was afraid we wouldn't be able to do it.

Nope...........NEED the break down now.

You also need model numbers for all of the equpment.

Ya, agreed. I responded to his email asking for the model numbers and price breakdown. I simply told him we have 3 other bids coming, and without the model #s and pricing structure, it'll be hard to compare apples-to-apples.

You also need an overflow pipe for the heavy rains you get some days.

Makes sense, although I can't visualize what this is. Is it simply a drain at the waterline, which is open to an area of the yard which would take the water away from the house and pool?

Not really. The standarn 8" to 10" is fine. The other is just hype. The steel is where the strength comes from.

Makes sense the steel is where the strength comes from, as with any concrete pour. I just thought the 12" - 18" gunite would have more steel in it than 8" - 10", but maybe he still only builds a single structure grid, and not a cage? His email made it clear there are areas we can cut back on to reduce cost, and I need to call him to discuss. Maybe this is just his way of building in easy negotiating points. So if we cut the walls back to 10", he can show some movement in the price. I'm sure his bid has built in negotiating points, since he's been doing this so long.

-Depth-you want to go 4' deep in the shallow end. 3.5' is too shallow to do a good crawl stroke in without scraping your knuckles. 4' will also ease the slope to the deeper end.

Good point. I'll have to clarify, but if memory serves ... I think he said the shallow end goes from 3.5' to 4.5', then the slope to the 6' deep end starts there. I'll need to check though.

-in-line chlorinator is a no go. The tablets/pucks are okay for short term like weekend get aways but over time they add extra stuff to your water (CYA or CH) that does not go away with time. Once they get to high you will have to drain and add some of your water.

So should I scrap the chlorinator all together, and ask for SWG? Or, if I stick with chlorine, should I have the in-line chlorinator as as well as some other chlorine solution? So the in-line unit would be empty during normal use, but when we go on vacation, I can drop a puck/tab in it to maintain the chemistry while we are gone?

I suppose this all depends on the model numbers of the equipment though, doesn't it? ie: How much automation will the equipment provide.

-I like the valves they listed! Do NOT want the ball valves as they have to be cut out to replace. Ask for unions on either side of all equipment to aid in service as needed.

Good point. I just assumed any piece of equipment which is plumbed in would have unions on both sides. It's something I would definitely look for when the equipment was staged on the pad, before plumbing connections made. But thanks for calling it out, as I'll be sure to have it spec'ed into the proposals.

-ask for a light over the equipment pad. You will thank me the first time you have to go out there at dark time.

Definitely! I am planning to build a small enclosure to encapsulate the equipment, with a removable (or raiseable lid) casing. Having a switch with an overhead light is definitely in the plan. I'll probably end up doing this myself, unless the cost is negligible from the builder.

Thanks Kim for the input! Definitely very much appreciated

 

[kimkats]

have a chance to finish with a week or two left in the swim season.

Do NOT count on that.............builds almost always go longer than planned and this season may be worse than before due to so many people building pools and and the rain we have been getting and may be getting coming up. Do not let that even play into your chose.

I actually considered GC'ing the pool build myself,

You will be surprised how much YOU will end up doing for the most part the PB is not there so.............it will be on you to make sure things are done and done right. The main thing they do is take care of getting the subs for you.

I simply told him we have 3 other bids coming, and without the model #s and pricing structure, it'll be hard to compare apples-to-apples.

I like how you worded that!

Is it simply a drain at the waterline, which is open to an area of the yard which would take the water away from the house and pool?

Two ways to do it. It depends on the PB. Some put a flat grate right at the top of the waterline tile that goes to a pvc pipe that goes to daylight somewhere in your yard to is tied into your storm drain system. Some put it on the skimmer's backside and does the same idea for the pipe.

shallow end goes from 3.5' to 4.5',

I would start with 4' and to from there. That will cut down on the slope.

Or, if I stick with chlorine, should I have the in-line chlorinator as as well as some other chlorine solution? So the in-line unit would be empty during normal use, but when we go on vacation, I can drop a puck/tab in it to maintain the chemistry while we are gone?

That is up to you. That is a okay plan. I will tell you I have found the tablets don't work as well as liquid chlorine or SWG (the best of all!) but they are better than nothing.

I just assumed

you know better than to use that word.................trust yet verify!

 

[Stoopalini]

PB#2 replied saying I can just google the terms in the estimate to look up the model numbers.

I *think* PB#2 has better equipment, with automation capabilities, while PB#1 has basic equipment ... is this right?

PB#1:


PB#2:

From what I can tell, the Easy Touch Control Center, matched with the Intelliflo, provides the programmable control options ... right? And the Sta-Rite doesn't? Or, is the Sta-Rite automation capable, and I would just need to add some sort of controller to it?

Here is PB#1's updated estimate and drawings. Picking apart the details, it seems the two are comparable, with PB#2 maybe providing the better value due to thicker construction technique and better equipment? There's still so much I need to learn to better evaluate these .... We're still waiting on PB#3's proposal, and am hopeful that one will be better for our budget.

We were hoping to stay in the $65k range, all-in with decking and water feature. But seeing these estimates, I think I may have them just plumb for the water feature, and add it myself after the fact.

I found these pre-fab water fall kits, and they're fairly reasonably priced. As a DIY project, this shouldn't be very difficult.

Waterfalls for Pool | Swimming Pool Waterfalls | Universal Rocks

PB#1's 2nd estimate:

and updated drawing:


We would plant privacy landscaping behind the natural rock coping side of the pool, as there is a street visible on that side.

 

[Stoopalini]

Oh, and if we went with the SWG instead of a chlorinator, would anything else about the equipment need to change? Or is it simply replacing the inline chlorinator with an SWG unit, and everything else is fine?

 

[rlnjones]

Looks like you have awesome advice so far. PB#2 design is my favorite but it sucks that you have to lose some trees. Can't he move it over some to avoid losing trees?

 

[Stoopalini]

Looks like you have awesome advice so far. PB#2 design is my favorite but it sucks that you have to lose some trees. Can't he move it over some to avoid losing trees?

Agreed, PB#2's design looks awesome! The full cost of the design is about $81k though A good portion of that is the 40ft of boulders and 10ft water fall feature though. As well as capping the existing concrete deck and coating both the existing and the new. So there' sdefinitely room for us to reduce by changing it up.

Unfortunately we have a 10ft PUE easement which prevents it from being moved enough to not take the trees down. They're live oak trees, which aren't very healthy. We've actually taken down 38 live oaks on the property in the past 13 years, and I suspect they'll all come down eventually. So taking them down for the pool really just gives me the reason to plant some non-live-oak trees around the pool

 

[rlnjones]

Agreed, PB#2's design looks awesome! The full cost of the design is about $81k though A good portion of that is the 40ft of boulders and 10ft water fall feature though. As well as capping the existing concrete deck and coating both the existing and the new. So there' sdefinitely room for us to reduce by changing it up.

Unfortunately we have a 10ft PUE easement which prevents it from being moved enough to not take the trees down. They're live oak trees, which aren't very healthy. We've actually taken down 38 live oaks on the property in the past 13 years, and I suspect they'll all come down eventually. So taking them down for the pool really just gives me the reason to plant some non-live-oak trees around the pool

I understand. There's a lot of oak wilt out there , I know a lot of neighbors have lost lots of oaks recently. If it's inevitable anyway, not as big of a deal.

 

[Stoopalini]

So we had PB3's proposal come in, and this is the one we decided to go with.

It's 469 sq/ft, 89' perimeter, 14,203 gal with a good size tanning shelf and a 3-ton waterfall.

Here are the specifics:

Total cost $67,651 ... and they can start within the next week or 2.




For some reason, the images show flagstone in the grass, and that's not part of the design. We will have a flagstone walkway from the bench in the deep end, wrapping around back to the step on the deck though.

We decided to keep the 3.5' depth as the start in the shallow end. My wife said she didn't want it much deeper than this, so young kids aren't struggling to keep their head above water.

I tried to get the IntelliCenter instead of the EasyTouch, but both the pool builder and the local Pentair rep won't sell it due to all the support issues they've been experiencing. So that aside, we feel this has everything we were looking for, within our budget.

I plan to use chlorine pucks in the inline chlorinator while the pebbletek plaster cures, and after the water chemistry stabilizes, I plan to switch over to the HASA Liquidator going forward.

So that said, here is what we're starting with. I built this deck myself a bit over 11 years ago, in time for my daughter's 2nd birthday .... It's kind of bitter/sweet we began the demo of it this past weekend. The plan is to have it cleared by early next week so the PB can come and do the layout by end of next week. 2 trees also need to come down.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Stoop,

The EasyTouch will work just fine, but please make sure that you are not getting an EasyTouch "Lite"... They taste just like lite salad dressing... ☹

You need to get the model or part number.. If it is the PL4 or PSL4.. Those are lite versions.. They have no load center for all your circuit breakers and very few functions and programs.. If I were a pool builder, I would be ashamed to install one..

Good pump and good filter..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Stoopalini]

The EasyTouch will work just fine, but please make sure that you are not getting an EasyTouch "Lite"... They taste just like lite salad dressing... ☹

You need to get the model or part number.. If it is the PL4 or PSL4.. Those are lite versions.. They have no load center for all your circuit breakers and very few functions and programs.. If I were a pool builder, I would be ashamed to install one..

Good pump and good filter..

Thanks Jim! I did confirm it has the load center for the breakers, and is the P-4 model, not PL-4. I've read about the conversion process for turning it into a PS-8, which is nice to know if I need to expand in the future; So armed with this info, I'm happy to stick with the P-4 going in.

I plan to DIY landscaping lights, sound system, mister system, and maybe acid stenner injection down the road. It would be nice to have centralized control over all of it, which is why I tried to get the IntelliCenter. But I believe the P-4/P-8 will be fine for our future plans

 

[Jimrahbe]

Stoop,

As long as it has a load center it will work just fine..

Jim R.