DE waste to drywall?
- Thread starter pgershon
- Start date
I have the separation tank and am getting ready to install (Pentair). My only question is about the drainage lines. Waste from the DE filter goes into the tank at its top and there is a waste line at the tank's bottom that I will send to the dry well (its the closest drainage spot, and I believe it only collects water from the DE drainage, and its also buried under a shed so I cant easily inspect).
My only question is: Is there an issue with the piping going up before it goes down to the drainage line? I imagine when the system is running waste actively through the tank, the pressure will be more than sufficient to move the water out. But when I go to clean the DE out of the separation tank, it will still have water in it at all times (unless I open the manual release valve at the bottom to drain the final amount of water before cleaning). So I would would think upward piping for a short distance is OK. The alternative would require much more reconfiguration of my existing piping. Agree?
My only question is: Is there an issue with the piping going up before it goes down to the drainage line? I imagine when the system is running waste actively through the tank, the pressure will be more than sufficient to move the water out. But when I go to clean the DE out of the separation tank, it will still have water in it at all times (unless I open the manual release valve at the bottom to drain the final amount of water before cleaning). So I would would think upward piping for a short distance is OK. The alternative would require much more reconfiguration of my existing piping. Agree?
- May 23, 2015
- 24,585
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
As long as you don’t mind cleaning out stagnant water. The water left in that tank could get very gross and smelly if it’s not properly drained and cleaned. I guess you can just try it out and see how it goes. If the stagnant water is difficult to deal with, then you’ll probably want to change the drainage or open the drain plug every time to let excess water out.
I guess I could put the separation tank on bricks and try to work the drainage that way.
So I got my tank set up today. I installed on 8 inch concrete blocks so the water would drain from the tank. But the first use did not go without issue. Let me explain and maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong (if anything).
1) Piped the waste line from DE filter to inlet of Pentair DE separation tank. Pipe the outflow from tank to my drywall, all downhill flowing so that takes would eventually drain.
2) Turned pump off. Moved DE filter setting to backwash. Turned pump on. Pump is a variable speed pump, controlled by my Jandy system,. Pump goes on to full speed, then notches down to 2300 RPM over time.
3) Pumped backwashed fine initially, but as pump slowed down, it created an error from too much pressure and needed to be reset.
4) Finished backwash after reseting a few times. Then put DE filter into rinse (with pump off of course) and had same issue. Pump worked fine at high speed, then hot error when pump slowed down. And I could see DE coming back from the separation tank to the pump (window on pump turned blue form the DE/marble dust - this is 4.5 weeks after refinish with Diamond Brite).
What I think is happening is that the pressure in the tank is causing issues for my pump when not running at full speed. I am not sure what else I can do to correct the issue though.
Any ideas?
1) Piped the waste line from DE filter to inlet of Pentair DE separation tank. Pipe the outflow from tank to my drywall, all downhill flowing so that takes would eventually drain.
2) Turned pump off. Moved DE filter setting to backwash. Turned pump on. Pump is a variable speed pump, controlled by my Jandy system,. Pump goes on to full speed, then notches down to 2300 RPM over time.
3) Pumped backwashed fine initially, but as pump slowed down, it created an error from too much pressure and needed to be reset.
4) Finished backwash after reseting a few times. Then put DE filter into rinse (with pump off of course) and had same issue. Pump worked fine at high speed, then hot error when pump slowed down. And I could see DE coming back from the separation tank to the pump (window on pump turned blue form the DE/marble dust - this is 4.5 weeks after refinish with Diamond Brite).
What I think is happening is that the pressure in the tank is causing issues for my pump when not running at full speed. I am not sure what else I can do to correct the issue though.
Any ideas?
- May 23, 2015
- 24,585
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Did you open up the separation tank? Was there DE in it? Was the filter sock full?
Are you able to put the IntelliFlo into local control?
If so, I would update the settings for the Max RPMs to only 3000. I did that early on with mine because the turn on priming sequence goes to full speed (3HP) for way too long. I also adjusted the priming sensitivity so that it would run at full speed for only a short time.
Also, if you can go into local control on the pump, I would only use a low speed setting to backwash, like 1500RPM or less. I have an EasyTouch automation system so when you put it in SERVICE Mode and select a speed on the pump, it doesn’t do the startup full speed priming sequence, it just runs the pump at whatever RPM is selected.
Are you able to put the IntelliFlo into local control?
If so, I would update the settings for the Max RPMs to only 3000. I did that early on with mine because the turn on priming sequence goes to full speed (3HP) for way too long. I also adjusted the priming sensitivity so that it would run at full speed for only a short time.
Also, if you can go into local control on the pump, I would only use a low speed setting to backwash, like 1500RPM or less. I have an EasyTouch automation system so when you put it in SERVICE Mode and select a speed on the pump, it doesn’t do the startup full speed priming sequence, it just runs the pump at whatever RPM is selected.
Could the pressure be coming from the plugged drywall that started this whole adventure ?
Did you open it and clean out the DE ? I imagine it needs to be done either way because the separation tank will stop it from getting worse, but it was plugged to start and spilling into the yard.
Did you open it and clean out the DE ? I imagine it needs to be done either way because the separation tank will stop it from getting worse, but it was plugged to start and spilling into the yard.
Possible that drywall is still clogged, but I dont think so. Seems to drain fine last week when tested. Only speculating since I have not opened up to check, but hypothesis is that back-up occurred when I was backwashing multiple times/day clearing out the plaster dust. Drywall is in sand layer with very good drainage generally.
To access drywall to check would be very difficult. Drywall is underground, and I believe my pool house shed was built on top of the drywall. Collects waste only from the pool system - other runoff from roofs etc is directed to a different drywall.
I suppose I can check the drainage by opening the DE collection tank after cleaning and filling with hose and looking at rate of drainage. Without DE, it should drain freely i into clogged. Make sense?
Yes. And just like a cesspool (which it is) you would need it cleaned and aerated or the plaster dust would continue to plug the holes and floor. The plaster dust likely clogged up the sand around/under the well IMO.
For the most part, our sand (once you get down that far) drains almost infinitely.
^^^^^ so you should have been able to drain as long as you wanted after plastering, like you did before. Unless the plaster dust clogged the sand.
It absolutely makes sense to try the parts that aren't under the shed.
Opened tank and sock had lots of DE in it.
The only way I get local control is to disconnect the RS-485 communication cable from the side of the pump. Otherwise I use my iPhone Jandy iAqualink. But this always starts with a full speed prime. I believe I can disconnect the cable and then adjust the pump to prime at a slower speed, and then try reconnecting the automation and seeing if it takes.
But my issue seems to be at lower speeds, not higher speeds. I'd also mention that I noticed this year my heater times out with a Hi Limit 2 error if my pump runs at 2500, but works fine at 2800 RPM. I believe last year such high speed was not required (I came to the 2500 RPM level for the heater by trial and error - it worked last year). Might I have an issue with the impeller? Shoudl I open pump to check?
Related question - why is backwashing better at lower speed? I thought the opposite - that the higher pressure was desired.
Is there a way to access the drywall without moving the shed (a big job that will required digging part of my lawn)? My landscaper who manages my drainage issues didn't think it was necessary, but hard to say without testing. The only think draining there is the waste lien from the DE tank, so I will try the hose into it tomorrow (with no filter or DE collected) and see if it backs up.
I should mention the the pressure in my DE filter gets to about 35-40 while pump is priming at high speed. And pressure in collection tank gets to 40-45 and seems to stabilize, which makes me think it is draining at that level. Trouble occurred when the pump slowed and the 40-45 psi was too strong for the pump to clear at slow speed so pump stopped with error message (and some of the fluid from collection tank flowed back to pump).
What I dont know is if the high pressure in tank came because the tank filled with DE cause pressure build up or if high pressure came from clog further down line in drywall. If the former, its like the pressure pushing hot water through a coffee filter filled with coffee. How do I know if the pressure is from the captured material in the filter or from poor drainage below?
Sounds like a complete clog with almost zero flow.
Probably detecting zero flow.
There's no pressure pushing water through a coffee filter.
The water just basically falls through by gravity with no actual pressure.
The coffee adds no significant resistance.
The only pressure is the weight of the water.
The filter presents very little resistance to the flow of water and the coffee adds almost no additional resistance.
Thanks everyone. As I read this and think about it, another concern occurred to me. I went to my survey to look for the drywell by or under the shed and I dont see it. What I do see is a septic system for the pool house. Might the waste from the DE have been flowing to and now clogging the septic? Over the years, the pool house bathroom has been used very minimally, but no one has ever cleaned that septic. Should I check that first, as opposed to excavating the shed which might just be experiencing back up from septic? I there a good way to test? I am attaching the survey of the area. ST is the septic and LP is the leaching pond.
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It depends if the pool drains to the septic tank or the cesspool (leaching pond)
But the septic may have been full of solids for years and years, pushing them to the cesspool and ultimately clogging it. Whether you added DE to the septic tank, or the cesspool, you may have pushed it over the edge and it now one or both need a pumping.
The pool house toilet may still work because it's a gallon or two per flush, but the pool pump is a gallon per second (?).
Start with the new separation tank that is both easy and free to troubleshoot.
I would have guessed the pool needed it's own drywall, but it should have been on the survey. Unless they added it after the fact like to bring it up to code when the rules changed.
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I have septic guys coming out this afternoon and I will report what they find. I think I need to figure out where that waste line went and fix it. And my home's main septic is due for a pumping regardless.
Whatever drainage system is being used was the original from when the house was built. No one ever changed it (that I am aware of) and we installed separate drywells for roof and ground drainage in the area.
Whatever drainage system is being used was the original from when the house was built. No one ever changed it (that I am aware of) and we installed separate drywells for roof and ground drainage in the area.
In case you or any future readers don't fully understand the process, solid waste sinks in the septic tank and the water skims off the top to the cesspool. The cesspool has a bunch of holes and is surrounded by and over sand and can drain that water almost infinitely.
But *nobody* pumps out their septic tank when everything is working great and eventually its full of solids waste that gets pushed to the cesspool. The solids plug the cesspool holes and the whole thing backs up. That's when folks call for a pumpout and the time to do it was 2 years before that point.
Whether the pool had its own cesspool or not remains to be seen, but I think the plaster dust from frequent backwashes coated the drainage field around the cesspool and/or plugged up the drain holes. Or it was almost time to be pumped and the replaster pushed it over the edge.
1 year after moving into our house I had the cesspool guy come because we had no clue when it had (ever) been pumped. It sucked to have a $1k bill with 'nothing wrong', but now I have a baseline and a sewer flood isn't going to sneak up on me.
*ground water table anomaly or 100 year storm not withstanding.
But *nobody* pumps out their septic tank when everything is working great and eventually its full of solids waste that gets pushed to the cesspool. The solids plug the cesspool holes and the whole thing backs up. That's when folks call for a pumpout and the time to do it was 2 years before that point.
Whether the pool had its own cesspool or not remains to be seen, but I think the plaster dust from frequent backwashes coated the drainage field around the cesspool and/or plugged up the drain holes. Or it was almost time to be pumped and the replaster pushed it over the edge.
1 year after moving into our house I had the cesspool guy come because we had no clue when it had (ever) been pumped. It sucked to have a $1k bill with 'nothing wrong', but now I have a baseline and a sewer flood isn't going to sneak up on me.
*ground water table anomaly or 100 year storm not withstanding.
Septic company called me back after looking at the survey. They are certain that its such a code violation to pump pool waste into septic system that its almost impossible to be the case (they are coming Monday to pump my house septic anyway, I am long overdue). They referred me to a pool company to clean the dry well that they say must be there but not on survey. East Hampton code required a dedicated dry well for a swimming pool. I am back to my original theory that its under the shed.
I took out the DE from the collection tank today (a big mound - see photo). And then I ran hose water through the drainage. That drains perfectly with zero backup. But its not enough water to cause a problem - nothing like the water from backwash.
Logic says that I must have backed up something with the DE and plaster dust so I really need to dig it out. But I am still not sold that the pressure buildup is 100% waste line related. The DE in the filter, and the filter itself, drain slowly. I could observe this when spraying water through it while cleaning with hose. The DE tank is designed to hold up to 50 psi of pressure. But too much pressure is building for my pump at slow speed.
One thing I forgot to do when I backwashed system yesterday was bleed the air out of the DE separation tank. I noticed that step as I was re-reading the instructions last night. Could that have caused my high pressure issues? (edit to attach photo)
I took out the DE from the collection tank today (a big mound - see photo). And then I ran hose water through the drainage. That drains perfectly with zero backup. But its not enough water to cause a problem - nothing like the water from backwash.
Logic says that I must have backed up something with the DE and plaster dust so I really need to dig it out. But I am still not sold that the pressure buildup is 100% waste line related. The DE in the filter, and the filter itself, drain slowly. I could observe this when spraying water through it while cleaning with hose. The DE tank is designed to hold up to 50 psi of pressure. But too much pressure is building for my pump at slow speed.
One thing I forgot to do when I backwashed system yesterday was bleed the air out of the DE separation tank. I noticed that step as I was re-reading the instructions last night. Could that have caused my high pressure issues? (edit to attach photo)
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That's too high.
I would lower the top speed to 2,450 RPM in the settings.
Also, the SVRS might be causing the shutdown because it is very sensitive to changing pressure or flow.
I am with them for what 'should be'. There is never any telling what was done by folks who didn't know better, or care.
But my gut thought was that the survey was done for the pool and the pool dry well (seperate) was added later. Possibly at the first replaster to bring the whole thing up to code if the drywall code as added after the pool was built.
Agreed. So start with the easily accessible stuff. Can you cut and/or redirect the pipe between the new tank and the drywell temporarily? That way you could run the new system/pump and see if the problem remains (new system problem) or if the problem goes away (dry well problem worth moving the shed for)
The folks who did the replaster certainly did not install the pool drywell. I am in touch with them and they swear they just used the existing waste pipe - and that makes sense since shed was already built there. No one ever had a problem with it (that they mentioned) until this year when I was dealign with new plaster situation. I think either survey missed the pool dry well, or it was put in after surveyor came but before they completed job. I know I paid for the dry well because I remember arguing with the builder about the number of dry wells I paid for as "extras" vs what was in contract. My contract itself called for a "small" pool drywell. I am trying to look back at my notes from 2000-2001 to see if I ever paid for that drywell or received a credit for it (I have a suspicion that the dry well was never install and they used the septic). No one will admit to it today 22 years after the fact, but I will figure it out. When septic company comes Monday I will have them look.
I can run a new pipe from the drain line in the tank. But how thick a pipe should I use? Easiest would be a garden hose but I suspect its not wide enough. The water coming out of the tank should be very clean. What would you think of me using a thick pool hose to run into pool itself as a test case?