Critique this Bid (CA Pools)

[Montu]

Hello,

I am building a new home and along with it a new pool, I currently have all Pentair equipment (see signature) and am a little biased towards it because it's familiar however this bid from California Pools is all Hayward, I would appreciate any feedback on ANY part of the quote.

thanks in advance.

 

[nhamp07]

I think you need more than 1 skimmer and 3 returns for that size pool, but maybe not.

Also would get a 60 sqft DE over the 48 and maybe a bigger salt cell too.

 

[nhamp07]

People will also tell you a 3 foot pool is too shallow. We have a 3 foot to 5.5 foot but there is a continuous slope starting at the edge so 2 feet in it is 3.5 feet and so forth. I really like the 3 foot at the edge right now because we have small kids and they can stand no problems. Maybe we wont like it in 10 years but it serves its purpose now.

 

[Montu]

Thanks! I was already thinking about the 2nd skimmer, especially with the shape of the pool I think it will be needed.

I'll look into the bigger filter and salt cells, are the ones quoted close to their maximum effective capacity?

And about the 3ft, I have a 2 year old which is why this time we are going that route.

 

[mknauss]

That is the largest SWCG that Hayward makes.

If your pool is ~15000 gallons, the 40K cell is fine.

 

[Jimrahbe]

M,

I must admit to being a highly biased Pentair kind of guy...

If we moved and I had to build another pool, my pool builder would either install Pentair equipment or I'd find another pool builder.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[chiefwej]

I’m with Jim, in particular when it comes to VS pumps. California Pools built mine, all Hayward. In retrospect I would have much preferred Pentair.

 

[Montu]

M,

I must admit to being a highly biased Pentair kind of guy...

If we moved and I had to build another pool, my pool builder would either install Pentair equipment or I'd find another pool builder.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I’m with Jim, in particular when it comes to VS pumps. California Pools built mine, all Hayward. In retrospect I would have much preferred Pentair.

Can I ask you guys why you feel that way more specifically? I feel that if i went CA Pools / hayward I would discover why the not so fun way.

 

[Jimrahbe]

M,

I buy a certain kind of vehicle because I had some troubles with other brands and have not had any trouble with the brand I have used for the last 25 years..

I bought two rent houses with pools and they both had Hayward pumps.. Before I knew better I replaced them with two new Hayward pumps, which lasted less than two years... These were Hayward Super pumps, so not the top of their line for sure..

I have since upgraded both pools to Pentair IntelliFlo pumps, IC40 Saltwater systems and EasyTouch automation systems and have had zero problems for the past 6 years.

To be fair, I have not tried any of Hayward's top of the line equipment, so I am not really comparing apples to apples.. But once burned it is hard for me to stick my hand back into the oven.

My initial comments were really in response to your statement that you have Pentair now and like it...

Jim R.

 

[Montu]

M,

I buy a certain kind of vehicle because I had some troubles with other brands and have not had any trouble with the brand I have used for the last 25 years..

I bought two rent houses with pools and they both had Hayward pumps.. Before I knew better I replaced them with two new Hayward pumps, which lasted less than two years... These were Hayward Super pumps, so not the top of their line for sure..

I have since upgraded both pools to Pentair IntelliFlo pumps, IC40 Saltwater systems and EasyTouch automation systems and have had zero problems for the past 6 years.

To be fair, I have not tried any of Hayward's top of the line equipment, so I am not really comparing apples to apples.. But once burned it is hard for me to stick my hand back into the oven.

My initial comments were really in response to your statement that you have Pentair now and like it...

Jim R.

That's fair and valid, there are some brands I avoid for the same reason.

Thank you.

 

[setsailsoon]

M,

You already have great feedback on the aesthetics and equipment. I'm sure you'll get more. My comments are more on the terms and conditions for the work. Overall this is a pretty reasonable contract but there are a couple of glaring exceptions. I especially like the customer information which is very important for you to read as it is a part of the agreement and creates specific obligations on your part. I believe the contractor is trying to be sure you understand the work process before they start so there's no arguing once the price meter starts. This is a good thing for both parties in my mind. That said, there are a few items that I would get clear on with the contractor in writing before they start:

• "1. This contract details the entire scope of work. Soil conditions may be encountered that require additional costs to be paid by the buyer." Have they done work close to your home and if so was there any "hidden condition" work and what did it add to the price. You should ask the contractor to help quantify the potential cost obligation you may incur on this.
• "2. Many cities and sites require specialty engineering, drainage reports, hillside reports, grading & drainage engineering, permitting of past existing work, bringing existing work up to standards etc which cannot be foreseen. This unforeseen work is not included in this contract." They claim they have built 20,000 pools. Unless you're building in a very weird location they should know what all the city requirements are before they start. If they haven't built in your area it should be their responsibility to find out the local requirements before they start. I would delete this.
• "4. The Buyer has elected to repair any damage to sprinklers, landscape, utility lines, & concrete/paver walks and/or drives which may occur due to the construction of the swimming pool." Did you realize you are doing this repair? Good construction practice and local building codes require all utilities are marked by a specially qualified contractor (1800DIGG or something like this). If they hit a utility like it can easily cost more than your pool to repair. I would not agree to this. Buyer should be responsible for what they control constructors do the same. Identifying buried utilities is controlled by the constructor not the buyer.
• You are agreeing to provide electric power and the sub panel for the pool equipment. What are the specs they require and you agree to for this work?
• "If changes in environmental conditions cause damage beyond our control, the terms of this warranty will not cover repairs." Do you know what this means? If not you should have them describe what it means in writing in the contract. For example does this mean if you have new record high temps during concrete work they are not responsible for cracks or is this something weird like global warming?
• Does AZ law really require you pay in full before they finish the job? All other work I've done has a 5-10% retention tied to a very clear-cut, well defined final inspection criteria.

Building a pool should be a fantastic experience and both parties should get a fair shake. Don't be confrontational as you seek to understand these items rather take a "can you please help me understand why I should do this and/or how much my cost expose is?" It's very reasonable that you completely understand every word of this contract. The comments I've made here are exactly what I would address myself if I were you and I would fully expect to resolve them amicably and fairly.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Montu]

M,

You already have great feedback on the aesthetics and equipment. I'm sure you'll get more. My comments are more on the terms and conditions for the work. Overall this is a pretty reasonable contract but there are a couple of glaring exceptions. I especially like the customer information which is very important for you to read as it is a part of the agreement and creates specific obligations on your part. I believe the contractor is trying to be sure you understand the work process before they start so there's no arguing once the price meter starts. This is a good thing for both parties in my mind. That said, there are a few items that I would get clear on with the contractor in writing before they start:

• "1. This contract details the entire scope of work. Soil conditions may be encountered that require additional costs to be paid by the buyer." Have they done work close to your home and if so was there any "hidden condition" work and what did it add to the price. You should ask the contractor to help quantify the potential cost obligation you may incur on this.
• "2. Many cities and sites require specialty engineering, drainage reports, hillside reports, grading & drainage engineering, permitting of past existing work, bringing existing work up to standards etc which cannot be foreseen. This unforeseen work is not included in this contract." They claim they have built 20,000 pools. Unless you're building in a very weird location they should know what all the city requirements are before they start. If they haven't built in your area it should be their responsibility to find out the local requirements before they start. I would delete this.
• "4. The Buyer has elected to repair any damage to sprinklers, landscape, utility lines, & concrete/paver walks and/or drives which may occur due to the construction of the swimming pool." Did you realize you are doing this repair? Good construction practice and local building codes require all utilities are marked by a specially qualified contractor (1800DIGG or something like this). If they hit a utility like it can easily cost more than your pool to repair. I would not agree to this. Buyer should be responsible for what they control constructors do the same. Identifying buried utilities is controlled by the constructor not the buyer.
• You are agreeing to provide electric power and the sub panel for the pool equipment. What are the specs they require and you agree to for this work?
• "If changes in environmental conditions cause damage beyond our control, the terms of this warranty will not cover repairs." Do you know what this means? If not you should have them describe what it means in writing in the contract. For example does this mean if you have new record high temps during concrete work they are not responsible for cracks or is this something weird like global warming?
• Does AZ law really require you pay in full before they finish the job? All other work I've done has a 5-10% retention tied to a very clear-cut, well defined final inspection criteria.

Building a pool should be a fantastic experience and both parties should get a fair shake. Don't be confrontational as you seek to understand these items rather take a "can you please help me understand why I should do this and/or how much my cost expose is?" It's very reasonable that you completely understand every word of this contract. The comments I've made here are exactly what I would address myself if I were you and I would fully expect to resolve them amicably and fairly.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

Thank for you highlighting these, I hadn't read through these yet as we weren't ready to sign yet..I will definitely get clarification on all of these considering I didn't know things like we are providing the sub panel and other things are more broad than I expected.

 

[Teald024]

Exciting time for sure!

I'd make sure any promises are in writing. It makes it easier to keep track of them.

In floor cleaners are somewhat older technology. You may want to do some research to see if you would prefer to have a robot instead.

Does AZ law really require you pay in full before they finish the job? All other work I've done has a 5-10% retention tied to a very clear-cut, well defined final inspection criteria.

I was very surprised to see this as well but it looks like AZ has this written into law Az law 32-1158.01. Swimming pool; spa; construction contracts
But the part that the CPL left out was Section B. If a purchaser requires the contractor to furnish a payment and performance bond securing the performance of the contract, the contract provisions required by subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section may be changed in any manner agreed to by the parties to the contract.
Essentially, if the purchaser requires the contractor to get a payment bond, then the purchaser can change the payment terms to whatever is agreeable between the parties. I would tell CPL I wanted a payment and performance bond and then add more favorable terms at least holding 5-10% until after final inspection. At minimum have final payment due at equipment startup or some similar point. I'd walk if they are unwilling to do so. As written, you don't have a usable pool when you give them full payment and no guarantee of time of completion. Why would any buyer agree to this??

 

[Montu]

Exciting time for sure!

I'd make sure any promises are in writing. It makes it easier to keep track of them.

In floor cleaners are somewhat older technology. You may want to do some research to see if you would prefer to have a robot instead.


I was very surprised to see this as well but it looks like AZ has this written into law Az law 32-1158.01. Swimming pool; spa; construction contracts
But the part that the CPL left out was Section B. If a purchaser requires the contractor to furnish a payment and performance bond securing the performance of the contract, the contract provisions required by subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section may be changed in any manner agreed to by the parties to the contract.
Essentially, if the purchaser requires the contractor to get a payment bond, then the purchaser can change the payment terms to whatever is agreeable between the parties. I would tell CPL I wanted a payment and performance bond and then add more favorable terms at least holding 5-10% until after final inspection. At minimum have final payment due at equipment startup or some similar point. I'd walk if they are unwilling to do so. As written, you don't have a usable pool when you give them full payment and no guarantee of time of completion. Why would any buyer agree to this??

Thank you!

I generally realize Robot's work better, however I am attracted to the relatively "maintenance free" nature of in floor cleaners, for example with a Robot I see most of the better ones tend to have a collection basket that needs to be cleaned out...I don't really know how often this would become clogged but my guess is it couldn't make it through a 2 week vacation? Plus it just sits in the pool the entire time unless you want to take it in and out as needed right?

 

[mknauss]

Robot's do need to be removed to clean the filter. I run mine about 3x per week during swim season and clean it once per week. If you remove it from the water, which many members do after each run, you do need to clean the filter at that time. Takes me about 60 seconds to clean the filter.

But, they truly clean the pool. And they use very little electricity. If that matters to you.

 

[Teald024]

I am attracted to the relatively "maintenance free" nature of in floor cleaners

Yes, until you realize that you still need to brush the floor and walls occasionally. A robot will do that for you.

 

[chiefwej]

There are three pools on my block, all with infloor cleaning systems. Two of the systems work very well, one, not well at all. If you examine how an infloor system works, you will begin to understand why. The pools that have well functioning systems share a feature, a deep diving well with the main drain located at the bottom, while my pool is a play/sport pool with a relatively flat bottom. Infloor systems work by simply blowing debris around until it gets to the main drain, where it is picked up. In a pool with a deep well there is a gravity assist. The debris slides down the slope to the main drain and it works pretty well. In a play pool with a relatively flat bottom, debris just keeps blowing around, and around, if it does wind up at the main drain, it’s just by accident.

It cost me several thousands of dollars and many years to prove this hypothesis. A&A has been here many times, and replaced virtually every single part of the system, including main gear pack, and every single cleaning head. All to no avail. I broke down and bought a robot last year. Anytime I see any debris in the pool, I just drop him in and push the button. Two hours later my pool is spotless.
DO NOT WASTE MONEY ON AN INFLOOR SYSTEM IN A PLAY POOL.

 

[Montu]

Thanks guys, my current in floor system seems to work pretty well..I very rarely brush it..although I do have to in some spots especially during monsoon season..but still it's only a few times a month...however the comment about gravity assist makes sense...my pool isn't too deep but it definitely has this helping the in floor system.

 

[setsailsoon]

Thank for you highlighting these, I hadn't read through these yet as we weren't ready to sign yet..I will definitely get clarification on all of these considering I didn't know things like we are providing the sub panel and other things are more broad than I expected.

Mont,
You are way ahead of the curve to be addressing these points up front. Many owners ignore the terms and conditions. If nothing goes wrong it doesn't matter. But pool builds are a fairly complex construction job and there are lots of opportunities for things to go wrong. When that happens a fair contract for both parties that is understood by both actually makes the construction go much smoother because there are no delays while arguments get settled. My experience is that is also fosters cooperation which is key to a successful job.

Congrats for doing this right!

Chris

 

[Montu]

Alright so they say if we modify the payment terms they will do a pre lien on the house..this sounds fine to me and I assume it's fairly normal?

The other terms were clarified and it sounds as if we can change the wording and remove some items.

Also you guys convinced me to skip the in floor cleaning system thank you guys!

I have another meeting with presidential pools next week and should hopefully have another meeting lined up soon for a 3rd bid..I may update the thread for those bids as well.