Convert to SWG. CircuPool RJ60 vs Pentair IC60 w/ Automation. Self Install

Y’all are great. Here’s pic with cover removed.

We’ve got our first baby
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arriving in next couple weeks so not the best time to start a big project, but after that craziness dies down I think I’ll give it a go. I’m sure I’ll ask for more advice when I do. Thanks again.
 
Yikes. I see at least three things in there that don't look right to me. But I'm not an electrician. Let's see if the experts here spot anything...

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Make that five.

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Six.
 
js,


What does the 60 amp breaker power??

That's a great question. I can't figure it out. It appears to be running up into my attic. The attic has tons of insulation so I'm not 100% sure but I believe I tracked it running first to a junction box and then to a wall leading to who knows where. Nothing seems to be unpowered with it off... but now it's driving me crazy. New old houses are fun :).
 
That's a great question. I can't figure it out. It appears to be running up into my attic. The attic has tons of insulation so I'm not 100% sure but I believe I tracked it running first to a junction box and then to a wall leading to who knows where. Nothing seems to be unpowered with it off... but now it's driving me crazy. New old houses are fun :).

Did the original owner have a workshop of some kind? 60 amps is a bunch... Could also feed a hot tub/spa breaker box...

Can't think of much else...

Jim R.
 
Care to share?

Just hunches, hard to know for sure from a pic:

1. What is that brown filament draped across the box? Is that metal? That's a little too close to those two 240V tabs for my liking, close to the breaker connectors, too. Sloppy, whatever it is. Even if it's some sort of non-conductive twine, it shouldn't be there.

2. It appears the main feed has three lines. The two 240 legs and a third, which looks to be a neutral. That heads into a taped blob, probably a connector or splice, maybe because there was not enough wire to connect it properly to the neutral bar. Not ideal. Probably not code.

3. The wire that appears to be connecting that blob to the neutral bar looks to be one or two gauges smaller than the wire coming up out of the conduit. Also not ideal. Probably not code.

4. If you look just above the tape blob, there is a white 12 gauge wire that appears to have a knick in it. Could be just a smudge, but looks just like a knick.

5. It looks like there are 12 gauge wires connecting to 15 amp breakers. Normally that's 14 gauge. This is not an inherent danger, but not good practice. See below.

6. It looks like there is a white wire attached to one of the breakers. Also not good practice:

Most of these things are not any immediate threat. Just bad practice, with potential problems baked in. A good electrical job is not only executed so that everything works fine, but also so the next electrician that comes along can rely on industry standard methods. Which is the purpose of building codes. For example: a 12 gauge white wire connected to a 15 amp breaker is perfectly safe, in and of itself. But somewhere else in your system that white wire emerges in a box. Some other person (besides the original electrician) should be able to reasonably assume that that 12 gauge white wire is the neutral wire of a 20 amp circuit, when in fact it is the hot wire of a 15 amp circuit. Similar for the 12 gauge black wire connected to a 15 amp breaker. At the other end, someone might wire up a circuit that requires 20 amps, relying on finding a black 12 gauge wire, when in fact there is only a 15 amp breaker protecting it. Codes exist to not only ensure everything works as intended, but also to protect future expansion and repairs...

I think even labeling breakers is code, so the fact that you don't know what a 60amp circuit is doing (or not doing) is another example of sloppy work (so seven)!

Plus, I'm not seeing a ground wire of sufficient gauge. I can't now remember if a sub panel is not supposed to have a ground wire to the main breaker box, or is supposed to have one. So I can't speak to that, other than that's something to check on. If I remember right, it's not optional, it's supposed to be one way or the other.

Whoever wired that box was likely not a licensed electrician, and it was not likely inspected.
 
I am not an electrician but I'll take a gander:
Looks like you got a white wire on the bottom breaker on the left connected to not sure where.
Not sure what that huge electrical wire wrapped "clump" is but that doesn't look right.
Is that a black wire in the box with just a red wire cap on it just abandonded to no-where? Looks like it comes out of the electrical wire "clump"?
Out of the 60 Amp breakers, you have 2 black wires coming out. Shouldn't there be a white wire to go with them out thru the hole on the bottom right side?
And what's up with that white wire going across the back of the box. Looks like it's for hanging a picture or something in there.
And lastly, I'm not fond of the totally rusted out wire clamp in the bottom of the box.

I am NOT an electrician, just a homeowner. What I mentioned above could all well be totally "fine" and no issue. But I figured it's late, I'll take a crack at it. Cheers.

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Dirk - I see the same nick you see on that white wire....
 
Where are the green ground wires for each circuit and a ground bus bar in the panel?

The brown twine looks like a pull string to pull additional wires through one of the conduits.

I agree the neutrals on the left are a mess and should be cleaned up.

The two black wires going out the right side are the two hot legs of a 230V circuit. There should be no white neutral but there should be a green ground.

I would not DIY that subpanel. I would call in an electrician for a cleanup.

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Where are the green ground wires for each circuit and a ground bus bar in the panel?

Some ground wires are conspicuously missing, absolutely. Which begs a bigger question. If the "electrician" didn't understand how to properly wire neutral and ground, not to mention the other possible code violations in that box, can the OP feel confident that this same person knew anything at all about bonding, or pool wiring in general? I mentioned that most of the "mistakes" in that box are not immediate threats. But if bonding wasn't done, or done correctly, then that is an immediate threat. One of those breakers runs the pool light. Is the pool light bonded correctly?

I don't mean to put a scare into you JS. But better that I point something out and be wrong than to say nothing and be right. If any of what we've all been pointing out is true, and you didn't recognize them at first glance into that box, then I'd follow Allen's advice and get a licensed electrician involved, one with expertise in pool equipment wiring. If this person doesn't know what bonding is, or claims bonding is grounding, then you have the wrong person. And receiving advice from strangers on a forum, who are only going off the photo(s) you provide, can work, I suppose, but can also lead to potential problems (which is why I hesitated in providing my "list" in the first place). I can appreciate wanting to DIY and save some money. If you DIY plumbing or equipment installation, and something leaks, or you blow your warranty, or even fry a pump or something, that's one thing. It's only time and money, after all. But if you neglect protections from voltage potential differences between your pool equipment and your pool, its water or surrounding equipment and concrete, that's an entirely different matter, one with possibly more dire consequences...

I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous, and I've wired up thousands of things over the years, but still I hired a pro to install my ET and other new pool equipment (plus, I wanted the Pentair warranty, which I've already collected about $1000 from). Ironically, that pro turned out not to be an expert, and certainly not a licensed electrician, so I am just now finding things he neglected or flat out did wrong (like properly connecting my bond wiring, which is why I'm so up in your face about it). So even going with a pro is not a guarantee of getting it done correctly. Go with a licensed electrician, and interview him properly about his qualifications to do this type of pool-related work (something I neglected to do before I knew better). I won't make that mistake again.
 

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More things I don’t know then know about the OP subpanel ...

When was it originally installed? Was it before 3 prong outlets and grounds were required?
How many times has that box been modified?
That subpanel could have been installed after the pool was built and not reflect the pool bonding.
I would look at the pump and heater and see if there is a bond wire connected to it. That should give an indication if there is a bonding grid for the pool.
 
Alright, y'all have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.
One note, the "brown twine/filament" in the photo was just some dead plant matter, easily removed.

I am now worried about the bonding situation of the pool. I don't see any separate wires running from the pool pump that I thought might be there for bonding. Otherwise, I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify if things like the pool light is bonded correctly. It appears I'll have to take your advice and get a qualified electrician out to look at it. Maybe I'll wait to see how expensive fixing this situation is before putting my SWG/automation plan into effect :)
 
Yep, good plan. And sorry to be so doom and gloom. But better safe than sorry.

My bond wire is very evident on my pad. It's a bare 8 gauge copper wire (about 1/8" in diameter), that runs from out of the ground, near where the plumbing pipes emerge, and is physically connected to my pump and heater. I discovered it wasn't connected to my ET nor some other electrical components, so I'm fixing that now. It basically connects everything together: plaster/gunite, deck, rebar, water, ladders, lights, fences (that are close enough to the pool) and all the equipment on the pad (and possibly other things, too). It's pretty obvious, and wouldn't be hidden, at least where it connects to the pump, for sure.

When was your pool built? Did you say? Do you have any metal near or in your pool? (Fences, ladders, etc.)

I don't know anything about retrofitting a pool for bonding. Anyone ever done that? Had it done?
 
Bonding your equipment at the pad is relatively simple. But extending the bond to the pool and its components is going to be a challenge, if not near-impossible (without significant cost). We'll have to see if anyone here can recommended what to do about that, if anything... Sorry I can't be of more help...
 
. But extending the bond to the pool and its components is going to be a challenge, if not near-impossible (without significant cost).

I was afraid that'd be the case. Is it still valuable (reduced risk) to have the equipment bonded? I assume the pool light can be bonded via it's wiring? Or is it an all or nothing thing? I'm embarrassed I don't know more about this... I clearly need to do some learning.
 
IMO jsridley, you need to stop what you're doing and call an electrician or appliance (pool equipment) installer. With "electrical not one of my strong suits" you could have seriously hurt yourself easily just by removing that electrical service panel cover. With your first baby on the way within the next few weeks, I felt compelled to give my $0.02. PLEASE BE SAFE!!!
 
I was afraid that'd be the case. Is it still valuable (reduced risk) to have the equipment bonded? I assume the pool light can be bonded via it's wiring? Or is it an all or nothing thing? I'm embarrassed I don't know more about this... I clearly need to do some learning.

Based on what I've been learning here about bonding, having just some items bonded is of questionable value. Bonding does its thing by tying everything together electrically. And I think bonding a pool light involves more than just the wiring. I don't know much more about it than you do, just that it's important for safety, and something that needs to be done by someone that knows how to do it, and test it, properly.

IMO jsridley, you need to stop what you're doing and call an electrician or appliance (pool equipment) installer. With "electrical not one of my strong suits" you could have seriously hurt yourself easily just by removing that electrical service panel cover. With your first baby on the way within the next few weeks, I felt compelled to give my $0.02. PLEASE BE SAFE!!!

:thumleft:
 
I was afraid that'd be the case. Is it still valuable (reduced risk) to have the equipment bonded? I assume the pool light can be bonded via it's wiring? Or is it an all or nothing thing? I'm embarrassed I don't know more about this... I clearly need to do some learning.

Bonding invokves keeping the pool, water, deck, and all equipment at the same voltage potential to ensure that no stray voltages pass through a person while in or around the water. It is an all or nothing complete package.
 
IMO jsridley, you need to stop what you're doing and call an electrician or appliance (pool equipment) installer. With "electrical not one of my strong suits" you could have seriously hurt yourself easily just by removing that electrical service panel cover. With your first baby on the way within the next few weeks, I felt compelled to give my $0.02. PLEASE BE SAFE!!!


Well said satpoolman..

& where are the GFI in the sub panel? This would have been spotted by a knowledgeable contributor immediately.. with an outdoor sub panel, GF are to be readily accessible: ie; not in the main panel after a walk across the yard.

& always consider your sources of information!!

Electricity is deadly and invisible..
 

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