Cloudy white water won't clear

[kellyfair]

And to be honest since this is the first I have ever had a pool I'm not sure if there is scaling or not...what would I see that shows signs of this?

Your liner would feel rough like sand paper, and you’d see deposits on skimmer faceplate, stairs, etc.

 

[bjmcgill09]

Since I am new to having a pool, I wanted to do a follow up to see if there is anything more I should be doing during the SLAM of my pool.
Here are my current pool test results:
FC -14 ( I've kept this level at 12 as my CYA was at 30)
CC - 0
CH - 1000 (this rose quite a bit from last week when I tested)
TA- 130
PH 8.2 ( I realize this isn't accurate since I'm in the middle of a SLAM)
CYA - 35 (I retested this today and it seems the CYA is higher)
OCLT - shows no chlorine loss at night

During the SLAM I have tested the pool water every few hours to keep the chlorine level consistent with my CYA level. I have kept the pool pump running 24/7 and I added some DE to my sand filter at the start of the SLAM. I am brushing and vacuuming the pool every day.
This is the start of day 5 of the SLAM and I see absolutely no change in the water. It is just as milky cloudy as its been. I know with a sand filter that it takes longer, but should I see at least some change?

Is it possible that there is something else causing the cloudiness? Does it have to do with the hardness in my pool? And with the pool being so hard, how do I keep that in check? I have read that I should not be adding the Metal Scale out products, but I'm not sure what to do to keep that in check. Any water that dries on our deck, or the water that was on the solar cover dries and levels a white film. I am assuming this must be scaling from the hardness?
I'm just at a loss at this point as to what to do at this point. I really want to have the water in good condition before we close it up for the winter.

 

[PoolStored]

1) How often are you backwashing your filter? You should note clean pressure and backwash every time filter pressure increases 25%.
2) You should add DE every time you backwash. Add in 1/4 cup increments until you see a 1psi rise.
3) The only way to reduce CH levels is to replace water. See "No Drain Water Exchange" in this article:

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

If it were me, I'd replace 60% of my water.
What is the CH of your fill water? Have you used Cal Hypo to sanitize? Would help to know source of the CH.

 

[Mdragger88]

Cya of 35 counts as 40 for chlorination purposes so slam level is 16ppm.
Ch doesn’t increase that quickly unless you’re using calcium containing products.
ie. Cal hypo- cal hypo also can cause also cloudiness when used in large amounts further complicating matters.
Metal out (sequestrants) also can cause cloudiness.
Phosphate removers also cause cloudiness.
Use the DE as poolstored suggested to see if that helps with clarity.
If that doesn’t help & you’re still passing theOvernight Chlorine Loss Test
Definitely consider a large water exchange (do the no drain method) to get the ch way down, reduce the copper in the pool & dilute all the floc,clarifier, sequestrant, & phosphate removal potions you have added. All of those are expensive & unnecessary in your situation (except maybe the sequestrant if you have metals in your fill water).
Since you added more gummy stuff (floc/clarifiers)after changing your sand you might wanna do a deep cleaning of the sand as well. Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

 

[bjmcgill09]

1) How often are you backwashing your filter? You should note clean pressure and backwash every time filter pressure increases 25%.
2) You should add DE every time you backwash. Add in 1/4 cup increments until you see a 1psi rise.
3) The only way to reduce CH levels is to replace water. See "No Drain Water Exchange" in this article:

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

If it were me, I'd replace 60% of my water.
What is the CH of your fill water? Have you used Cal Hypo to sanitize? Would help to know source of the CH.

I haven't backwashed the filter yet because the pressure hasn't increased from its normal running pressure. I did add the DE until I saw the 1 psi rise, but the pressure hasn't increased from this.
The CH of our fill water is 1275 - I do use a filter that it runs through, but it of course doesn't drastically reduce the water. I previously used chlorine tabs as my source of chlorine, but stopped that about 2 weeks ago. I have been using liquid chlorine only for the SLAM and for my chlorine source over the past 2 weeks. I am just confused as to why it went up since I last tested because I haven't added any water. I actually had to drain water due to rain.
I have been wondering if I just needed to drain and refill the pool and start over.
I am considering having a soft water hook up installed for us to use as fill water.

 

[bjmcgill09]

Cya of 35 counts as 40 for chlorination purposes so slam level is 16ppm.
Ch doesn’t increase that quickly unless you’re using calcium containing products.
ie. Cal hypo- cal hypo also can cause also cloudiness when used in large amounts further complicating matters.
Metal out (sequestrants) also can cause cloudiness.
Phosphate removers also cause cloudiness.
Use the DE as poolstored suggested to see if that helps with clarity.
If that doesn’t help & you’re still passing theOvernight Chlorine Loss Test
Definitely consider a large water exchange (do the no drain method) to get the ch way down, reduce the copper in the pool & dilute all the floc,clarifier, sequestrant, & phosphate removal potions you have added. All of those are expensive & unnecessary in your situation (except maybe the sequestrant if you have metals in your fill water).
Since you added more gummy stuff (floc/clarifiers)after changing your sand you might wanna do a deep cleaning of the sand as well. Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

Ok so I will up my chlorine level for the SLAM.
I have not added any calcium containing products over the past week. I am only using liquid chlorine at this point.
As far as in the past, I actually never added the phosphate remover, I returned it after stumbling onto TFP and reading everyone's recommendations on what chemicals to use. But in the past I did use Metal sequestrates since we have such hard fill water. And to try and clear up the cloudiness over the summer I did try pool floc (vaccumed to waste) and clarifiers (which did nothing).
I have added DE to my sand filter at the start of the SLAM, but other than the DE raising my filter pressure 1psi, the filter pressure hasn't went up at all, which makes me think its not filter much out.

I will look into deep cleaning the sand in the filter and read up on replacing pool water.
Do I need to look at a larger sand filter for my pool. I had someone recommend that to me. My current sand filter holds 100 lbs of sand and my pool is 10,000. I know of others that have the same size pool as myself and they have a filter that holds 150 lbs of sand.

 

[Mdragger88]

Draining an above ground pool below 18” can cause the liner to shift. If it is buried you also don’t want to drain below the surrounding ground level or you risk collapse. The no drain water exchange is the best solution.

Draining - Further Reading

www.google.com

So you currently have a water softener?
Do you know your regen rate?
You can certainly use softened water for top ups but it won’t be able to handle filling the whole pool/extended running.

Your filter size isn’t necessarily the problem here - although bigger is always better lol.

 

[bjmcgill09]

Draining an above ground pool below 18” can cause the liner to shift. If it is buried you also don’t want to drain below the surrounding ground level or you risk collapse. The no drain water exchange is the best solution.

Draining - Further Reading

www.google.com

So you currently have a water softener?
Do you know your regen rate?
You can certainly use softened water for top ups but it won’t be able to handle filling the whole pool/extended runs.

Draining an above ground pool below 18” can cause the liner to shift. If it is buried you also don’t want to drain below the surrounding ground level or you risk collapse. The no drain water exchange is the best solution.

Draining - Further Reading

www.google.com

So you currently have a water softener?
Do you know your regen rate?
You can certainly use softened water for top ups but it won’t be able to handle filling the whole pool/extended runs.

We do have a softner, but its not currently hooked up to the outside hose bib, so I'd have to run it from inside the house.
I don't know what a regen rate is.
And my concern to was can the softner keep up with top offs to the pool. I have a solar cover to help cut back on evaporation, but haven't been able to use it due to all the cloudy issues we have had.

 

[bjmcgill09]

So I have read over the "No drain water exchange" article, but I'm not sure how that will work for me. It sounds like the process takes quite a bit of time and seems like its based on me filling it from a water source on sight. Due to the hardness of our well water I don't want to use our own water to fill the pool or I will be right back in the situation I am currently in with super hard pool water. That being said I will need to have a water hauling company deliver pool water to us. So how do I safely drain out 60% of the pool so they can bring fresh water in? Again I have never had to do this, but I assume they will only be here max an hour to deliver 6000 gallons of water. And I'm sure they wont extend the time to do a No drain water exchange.

 

[mknauss]

With a vinyl liner pool, you can not safely drain down more than 18-24". That may be 40-50% of your pool volume. You have to be very careful that the liner does not shift.

 

[sande005]

I am in no way qualified for an expert opinion, but it does seem that your CH is likely the big issue in your cloudiness problem. If your fill water is 1275, doing an exchange with that is out. You might want to do a search for a company to bring fill water to you (google "water hauling near me" - there seem to be a few in your area). If they can supply low/very low CH water, at a cost you can afford, then using theirs to drop yours to a more manageable level might be the way to go. You'd have to work out how to do the "no drain" exchange with them at the time of their delivery.
Your liner is getting a bit long in the tooth, but beyond fading, in my experience the sign for replacement is developing pin hole leaks. So get familiar with "the bucket test" to see periodically if yours is starting to do so. For mine, a couple of patches got me through a season after the first leaks appeared, but meant doing the replacement at the start of the next. At that point, shipping in "good" water would be the best way to go. And then doing what you can to top off with soft water or minor well water additions.

 

[bjmcgill09]

With a vinyl liner pool, you can not safely drain down more than 18-24". That may be 40-50% of your pool volume. You have to be very careful that the liner does not shift.

Do you have a recommendation on how to approach my problem. I would love to do the No Drain water exchange to try and avoid problems with the liner. Is this something that water hauling companies work me on? Or do I safely drain what I can and have water brought in and then repeat as necessary?

 

[mknauss]

You are in a tough spot. The water delivery companies will not sit there unless you pay their hourly rate.

From another post this liner is due for replacement? If so, do that next spring.

Or, do it in small batches. More expensive, more water. When you drain any amount from a vinyl liner pool there is risk. You have to assess that risk versus cost.

 

[bjmcgill09]

You are in a tough spot. The water delivery companies will not sit there unless you pay their hourly rate.

From another post this liner is due for replacement? If so, do that next spring.

Or, do it in small batches. More expensive, more water. When you drain any amount from a vinyl liner pool there is risk. You have to assess that risk versus cost.

Yes the liner is 10 years old now (per the previous owner) it is faded and there is staining at the water level. Per the previous owner the pool sat unused and uncovered and exposed to the elements from about Sept 2021 until April 2023.
I noticed if I lightly rub the liner near the water level of the pool, the print of the vinyl cover actually rubs of and is just white. I figured this is a good indication that it is nearing the end of its life and may start developing leaks as time goes on. If that's the case we are considering just throwing in the towel on the pool for now, winterizing it and then draining the pool in the spring and having a new liner installed and new water placed in the pool.

 

[kellyfair]

we are considering just throwing in the towel on the pool for now, winterizing it and then draining the pool in the spring and having a new liner installed and new water placed in the pool.

While a faded liner can still have life in it, if you are going to need to drain anyway, this might be your best option.

Do deep clean your filter. Your sand may be gunked up. And as Mdragger says, bigger is always better! I have a 7,000-ish gallon pool and a 19” Waterway sand filter with 150 pounds of sand.

 

[Mdragger88]

Although your ch is off the charts,
With your older liner’s condition possibly presenting a problem if you drain/refill you may just need to ride it out & continue with slam to salvage what is left of the summer.
I would hate for you to drain 1/2 & pay for the water to be trucked in only to have a rip occur upon refilling.
Continue filtering 24/7 (adding de/cellulose fiber after each backwash) to deal with the cloudiness. Do the deep clean of the sand (the sooner the better)
Be sure your gauge works- it should go to zero when the pump is off.
Putting a pole in the water at the same spot each day and taking a picture helps to see changes.
It can take a while to clear if sequestrants/ calcium precipitation is involved & algae in general .
Sand filters are the slowest to clear.
If your fc falls to 10 or below check your ph & get it back to 7.2.
Most slams take a week or more.
This is the pool owner patience part!
After slam - Maintain adequate fc (high target) & keep ph in the mid 7’s until you can do a liner replacement & full fill with low ch water then thereafter use softened water to do top offs. There are adapters to hook a hose to your faucet until you get a softened hose bib line installed.

 

[bjmcgill09]

Due to the age of the liner and and the fact I may have to drain part of the pool and refill does have me thinking of just doing it all the same time. I definitely don't want to refill the pool, only to have the liner fail and then I have to start over anyway.
I am fine being patient with the pool, but since I have been working to deal with this issue most of the summer I am trying to get to the root of the problem. I did forget to mention that per pool store testing about 2 weeks ago, they told me that my phosphate levels were at 5800. No one had ever mentioned to me about keeping an eye on phosphate levels before, so is the high phosphate levels and high calcium hardness causing my cloudiness as opposed to algae. I read somewhere that with the high calcium and high phosphate its too fine for a sand filter to filter out of the water. I'm not sure about the validity of this though.

 

[Mdragger88]

Due to the age of the liner and and the fact I may have to drain part of the pool and refill does have me thinking of just doing it all the same time. I definitely don't want to refill the pool, only to have the liner fail and then I have to start over anyway.
I am fine being patient with the pool, but since I have been working to deal with this issue most of the summer I am trying to get to the root of the problem. I did forget to mention that per pool store testing about 2 weeks ago, they told me that my phosphate levels were at 5800. No one had ever mentioned to me about keeping an eye on phosphate levels before, so is the high phosphate levels and high calcium hardness causing my cloudiness as opposed to algae. I read somewhere that with the high calcium and high phosphate its too fine for a sand filter to filter out of the water. I'm not sure about the validity of this though.

Adding sequestrant increases phosphates - its just a part of it.
Its a lovely game they play at the pool store… “you have algae - use this copper algaecide & cal hypo” then the following week you return because it’s not better & the story is “ you have high ch/scale/metals you need this stain & scale remover” then next week… “ you have high phosphates, you need this phosphate remover”.
Its a vicious expensive circle that never ends & will have you broke & pulling your hair out!
With adequate fc at all times high phosphates are generally of no concern.
Coincidentally phosphate removal products cause cloudiness so it won’t really assist with your current issues, only add to them.
Removing/reducing phosphates doesn’t kill/eliminate algae- it just removes some of their food.
You’re on the right path- keep with slam, keep filtering, be sure your sand is in tip top shape to help & plan for a new liner & water.
this thread discusses the subject you mentioned in detail & may even be addressing the exact article you heard this from

Phosphates and cloudy water

Can phosphates alone cause cloudy pool water? If so, under what circumstances does that occur? Not counting the use of phosphate removers. "Phosphates are excellent plant fertilisers. They do no detectable harm in humans (in fact, phosphorus is an essential element for all known life). However...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[bjmcgill09]

Thank you very much for all the helpful advice everyone!

 

[SoDel]

For the water exchange, an idea (maybe a little crazy) comes to mind. If you have a place to discharge a large volume of water, you can rent a gasoline powered pump that can remove water pretty fast. The water truck likely has a similar pump to add the water.

Gas Trash Pump 3" | Sunbelt Rentals

A highly popular pump size, this 3" trash pump is perfect for a number of applications, including dewatering, water tank and water truck use. Featuring self-priming operation and a steel frame, this pump is easy to transport and operate, while also being

www.sunbeltrentals.com

Rental rate is something like 50 bucks for a half day (at least around here).