Cloudy/Foamy Water After Calcium Treatment

[PoolStored]

So I should SLAM and use the TCL numbers instead of FC? Just trying to make sure I do this right. I'm very grateful for your help and you taking the time to reply to me!

Great question. You should try holding the pool at SLAM levels of FC until you see the CCs start to come down but it’s going to take a lot of liquid chlorine to do it. You should turn off your SWCG during the process.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would look into doing an drain exchange -

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

It takes a really long time, even at SLAM levels for the sulfamate ion to break down. It has to undergo hydrolysis of a fairly stable covalent bond within the sulfamate molecule and that usually only happens at a pH that is dangerous for people and pools. This is why draining is needed unless you’re willing to chew up weeks worth of pool time.

I meant to keep and track total chlorine since that’s the only reasonable way to deal with this. I would make sure that your TC is at least 10% of CYA and hope that it’s enough to keep away any algae. Keep the SWG running at whatever output is needed to maintain a 10% TC/CYA ratio. Consider doing a no drain exchange to speed up the process of getting back to normal.

 

[Econdron]

I would look into doing an drain exchange -

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

It takes a really long time, even at SLAM levels for the sulfamate ion to break down. It has to undergo hydrolysis of a fairly stable covalent bond within the sulfamate molecule and that usually only happens at a pH that is dangerous for people and pools. This is why draining is needed unless you’re willing to chew up weeks worth of pool time.

I meant to keep and track total chlorine since that’s the only reasonable way to deal with this. I would make sure that your TC is at least 10% of CYA and hope that it’s enough to keep away any algae. Keep the SWG running at whatever output is needed to maintain a 10% TC/CYA ratio. Consider doing a no drain exchange to speed up the process of getting back to normal.

I was going to ask if I could "exchange" the water. I'll do that until things get back to manageable levels! Thanks so much.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I was going to ask if I could "exchange" the water. I'll do that until things get back to manageable levels! Thanks so much.

You’ll know when the sulfamate burden is starting to lessen by monitoring FC and CC. Once you see FC starting to rise and hold and CCs staring to decrease, that means the sulfamate is starting get low enough to not eat up so much chlorine.

 

[Econdron]

My water pressure and my utility pump both have the same output, right about 3-4 gallons per minute. At this rate, it will take about 3 full days to exchange half the pool. But I'll add a quart of chlorine later today and retest FC/CC tonight and tomorrow morning.

If I understand correctly, the TF-100 is accurately measuring chlorine content? The company was just saying ignore those readings because they didn't want to explain what was happening?

 

[PoolStored]

My water pressure and my utility pump both have the same output, right about 3-4 gallons per minute. At this rate, it will take about 3 full days to exchange half the pool. But I'll add a quart of chlorine later today and retest FC/CC tonight and tomorrow morning.

GREAT! Yes, it does take a moment..

If I understand correctly, the TF-100 is accurately measuring chlorine content? The company was just saying ignore those readings because they didn't want to explain what was happening?

Yes. Yes.

I'm sorry you were poolstored...Maybe share your experience?

I knew I was Pool Stored when...

With the influx of springtime new members rolling in, oddly, I found myself astounded at the number of members that have been Pool Stored. I don't know why it struck me this year, after helping so many that have been pool stored in the past, and even having the username PoolStored, but...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JoyfulNoise]

… The company was just saying ignore those readings because they didn't want to explain what was happening?

Because I doubt anyone there COULD explain it. What a terrible response from a company selling chemicals

Fact is, your test kit is working fine and it is correct. The FC is very low because most of the sulfamate reacts with it to form n-chlorosulfamate and leaves very little behind. It’s an equilibrium reaction. At a given temperature and pH, the reaction will force most of the chlorine to bind to the sulfamate. Chlorosulfamate doesn’t react with first part of the FAS-DPD test but it does react with the second part when you add the potassium iodide reagent. And so it shows up, as it should, as CC’s. So you can trust that your TF-100 is giving you correct results. If you measure 0.2ppm FC and 7.8ppm CC then that is exactly what you have. You will know when the sulfamate is decreasing in concentration when that CC number starts to decrease and the FC number starts to increase.

 

[Econdron]

Because I doubt anyone there COULD explain it. What a terrible response from a company selling chemicals

Fact is, your test kit is working fine and it is correct. The FC is very low because most of the sulfamate reacts with it to form n-chlorosulfamate and leaves very little behind. It’s an equilibrium reaction. At a given temperature and pH, the reaction will force most of the chlorine to bind to the sulfamate. Chlorosulfamate doesn’t react with first part of the FAS-DPD test but it does react with the second part when you add the potassium iodide reagent. And so it shows up, as it should, as CC’s. So you can trust that your TF-100 is giving you correct results. If you measure 0.2ppm FC and 7.8ppm CC then that is exactly what you have. You will know when the sulfamate is decreasing in concentration when that CC number starts to decrease and the FC number starts to increase.

Makes sense to me (except all the big words, but I'll trust your expertise!). I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out and respond!

While we're on the topic, I have not gotten any responses from TFP on the calcium scaling issue that originally drove me to buy this kit, does anyone have any advice on that? My pool had a CSI of -0.1 ish, and I was constantly seeing floating flakes of calcium scale, the vacuum filled up with calcium scales about every other day, and the walls of the fiberglass were slowly turning more and more white. From what I had researched, keeping the CSI at or below 0 should keep this from happening, but it didn't help much in my case.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Get your water decontaminated first and then we can dissect what’s going on with calcium. You need to have regular test results to look at as it’s impossible to guess at what’s happened in the past. Fiberglass pools often suffer from “chalking” of the gel coat which has nothing to do with calcium and is simply the deterioration of a submerged fiberglass surface. The flakes can come from an SWG that is either old and losing its catalyst coating or from water that is not properly balanced. Even negative CSI water can generate flakes because the pH of the water inside the cell is much higher than the pool when generating chlorine.

 

[Econdron]

Get your water decontaminated first and then we can dissect what’s going on with calcium. You need to have regular test results to look at as it’s impossible to guess at what’s happened in the past. Fiberglass pools often suffer from “chalking” of the gel coat which has nothing to do with calcium and is simply the deterioration of a submerged fiberglass surface. The flakes can come from an SWG that is either old and losing its catalyst coating or from water that is not properly balanced. Even negative CSI water can generate flakes because the pH of the water inside the cell is much higher than the pool when generating chlorine.

Sounds like a plan, thanks again.

Quick update, I'm about 24 hours in with the water exchange. By my calculations, I've exchanged about 20% of the water. Water is still cloudy. Maybe looks a little better? I don't have the circulation pumps on, so I'm trying to be extra cautious with my acid and bleach additions. I'm diluting them in water and spreading them as evenly as I can around the pool. I'm still not holding any FC, but my CC's have gone down from almost 6 to about 2. Seeing as my TCL has dropped a lot, I feel I may not be adding enough bleach? My plan was to wait a little until the sun sets some, then add enough bleach to my TCL in SLAM range and see if there's any noticeable improvement on the water quality and if the water starts holding some FC.

 

[Econdron]

Well its been about 60 hours, which means I've hopefully exchanged about 50% of the water. I decided to fire up the pool again and see where I'm at. My CYA was down to somewhere between 10-20, so I added 3 pounds of dichlor to get my FC up to about 10. I checked the FC about an hour later and I was at 5 FC and about 6 CC. I added a little more than a gallon of bleach to get back up to 10ish, then checked an hour later and now I'm at 3 FC and like 6 CC. I'm getting prett discouraged that my FC is not holding. I'll wait till the sun sets a little more then add more bleach to get back up to 10-12. I've never SLAMed before, does this sound normal? Or does it still sound like I have a significant amount of Sulfamic acid in the water @JoyfulNoise? I can do a OCLT but the water is pretty green now, I'm pretty confident it's got algae so I would fail the test either way.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you’ve got algae, then there’s now way to know what’s eating up the chlorine. You’ll have to go through the SLAM process now to get rid of the algae and then see where the water is at.

Sorry, that’s a royal PITA but it’s all you can do. Make sure you follow the SLAM instructions to the letter. You’ll need about 30ppm CYA so you have to adjust that value up and then I’d only use liquid chlorine for chlorination. See if you can get the FC up to SLAM level.

 

[Econdron]

If you’ve got algae, then there’s now way to know what’s eating up the chlorine. You’ll have to go through the SLAM process now to get rid of the algae and then see where the water is at.

Sorry, that’s a royal PITA but it’s all you can do. Make sure you follow the SLAM instructions to the letter. You’ll need about 30ppm CYA so you have to adjust that value up and then I’d only use liquid chlorine for chlorination. See if you can get the FC up to SLAM level.

I've never SLAMed before so I don't know what to expect, but I can't keep my FC's above 3-5ppm. Last night I added enough bleach to bring my FC back up to 12. This morning I checked again and my FC was at 3 and my CC's were at 16! Do I just keep going with this, or should I try to exchange the water again, but for longer? Is it normal to see CC's this high while SLAMing?

In regards to the safety of the pool shell and equipment, is there any harm in very high CC's?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Do you even know how much sulfamic acid you added? Even an estimate?

Are you sure you are doing the exchange drain properly? You’re using a submersible pump on the deep end and filling from the shallow end? It’s very important to get the drain and fill correctly positioned to minimize mixing or else you could wind up simply discharging all the fresh water you are adding.

It would seem that you still have a lot of sulfamates in the water if you are adding that much chlorine and it’s all being converted to CCs. There’s no danger in having high CCs but the chemical contamination is going to make all of this very difficult.

Basically you need to drain the pool and start over. But, you can’t do that with a fiberglass shell.

Make sure you are doing the exchange drain correctly and then continue to remove the contaminated water. Unfortunately it’s going to be a major uphill battle having to deal with both algae and sulfamate contamination.

 

[Econdron]

Do you even know how much sulfamic acid you added? Even an estimate?

Are you sure you are doing the exchange drain properly? You’re using a submersible pump on the deep end and filling from the shallow end? It’s very important to get the drain and fill correctly positioned to minimize mixing or else you could wind up simply discharging all the fresh water you are adding.

It would seem that you still have a lot of sulfamates in the water if you are adding that much chlorine and it’s all being converted to CCs. There’s no danger in having high CCs but the chemical contamination is going to make all of this very difficult.

Basically you need to drain the pool and start over. But, you can’t do that with a fiberglass shell.

Make sure you are doing the exchange drain correctly and then continue to remove the contaminated water. Unfortunately it’s going to be a major uphill battle having to deal with both algae and sulfamate contamination.

There were two different bags of powder, and I added 2 of each bag, so 4 bags total. I'm guessing each bag was approximately 3-5 pounds, so 12-20 pounds of powder, but I don't know how much of that was actually sulfamic acid. And yes, that's exactly how I did the exchange/drain. I put a bucket in the shallow end with the fill hose and I don't have a submersible pump, but I used a transfer pump with a hose in the deep end. It's a slow pump, but I don't have great water pressure either, so the fill/drain rate were about the same.

The pool is still very cloudy, but it definitely looks less green. I think the shocking is helping with the algae. Green tinted water 100% means algae, right? I really don't know what to do. If you were in my shoes, what would you do? I mean if I can get the algae gone and get the pool cleared up, I could live with a higher rate of CC's until the sulfamic acid works itself out. Maybe I'll give it another day of SLAMing and see if the appearance of the water continues to improve, and if not then maybe I'll consider doing the exchange for a much longer time.

If I do exchange the water again, should I keep the pool covered? Should I be adding any chemicals to the water to balance the fresh fill water?

 

[mknauss]

I put a bucket in the shallow end with the fill hose and I don't have a submersible pump, but I used a transfer pump with a hose in the deep end. It's a slow pump, but I don't have great water pressure either, so the fill/drain rate were about the same.

Did you read Draining - Further Reading and determine the method you should follow? Really depends on water temperature and water chemistry.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Even on the low end of your estimate you’re looking at 64ppm of sulfamic acid. That’s a lot of contaminant to get rid of. It only take a few ppm worth of sulfamic acid to completely neutralize any chlorine you add so it’s going to take a very long time for those 64ppm to break down.

Honestly, I would drain the pool through an exchange drain until I was satisfied that nearly all the old water is gone. Thankfully you live in a part of the country where water is plentiful and (relatively) cheap. You can try to use one of the other chemical levels as an estimate. Maybe your calcium hardness can be an indicator.

Sorry. There are just no good solutions here. Anything you do is either going to incur a lot of monetary expense or time. No easy path here.

 

[Econdron]

Did you read Draining - Further Reading and determine the method you should follow? Really depends on water temperature and water chemistry.

I did, I don't have a test kit for TDS, but it was pretty obvious the old water was sinking to the bottom of the deep end. The pool was really clearing up from shallow end to deep end during the initial exchange. It's a salt pool, and the heat hasn't been on, so fill water is pretty close in temperature to the pool water.

Even on the low end of your estimate you’re looking at 64ppm of sulfamic acid. That’s a lot of contaminant to get rid of. It only take a few ppm worth of sulfamic acid to completely neutralize any chlorine you add so it’s going to take a very long time for those 64ppm to break down.

Honestly, I would drain the pool through an exchange drain until I was satisfied that nearly all the old water is gone. Thankfully you live in a part of the country where water is plentiful and (relatively) cheap. You can try to use one of the other chemical levels as an estimate. Maybe your calcium hardness can be an indicator.

Sorry. There are just no good solutions here. Anything you do is either going to incur a lot of monetary expense or time. No easy path here.

Should I keep the pool covered during the exchange? Is the lack of sunlight better to prevent algae growth?

 

[JamesW]

There were two different bags of powder, and I added 2 of each bag, so 4 bags total. I'm guessing each bag was approximately 3-5 pounds, so 12-20 pounds of powder, but I don't know how much of that was actually sulfamic acid.

Can you contact the company and ask them exactly what they sold you so we are dealing with accurate information and not guessing?

 

[Econdron]

Can you contact the company and ask them exactly what they sold you so we are dealing with accurate information and not guessing?

I just sent them a message asking what acids were in there. I doubt they'll respond, but I'll let you know if they do.

The pool actually looked pretty good this morning. Slightly cloudy still, but I can see the deep end. I assume the SLAMing has been working, even with a majority of the FC being converted to CC.

If the water clears up to be "sparkling" again, and I can maintain an FC of 5ppm just with the SWG, is there any harm in swimming in the pool and just letting this work itself out, even with a high level of CC?