Can't stabilize Bromine bank

jvf

0
Aug 5, 2017
19
maui
Starting to regret that I hated organic chemistry in college. Refilled spa water and mistakenly added way too much sodium bromide to start the bank (oops). However, shock treatments (non-chlorine) even as they approach the recommended ratio, don’t result in stable Bromine readings (Lamotte ColorQ-no comments please, meter wars are in other posts). After 3rd shock I finally got Br. Of 5.5 but a few hrs. later it was .4. Next shock got me up to 10.0 but overnight it went down to 1.1. ???? Ph and Alk are good. No one has uses the spa since refill. I thought Br was supposed to be even more stable than Chlorine even if final results might be too high based on what I’ve done (4x over). Any ideas as to why the readings plummet after a few hours and never stabilize?

Thanks,
 
:wave: Welcome to TFP!!!

I will defer to others that know more about bromine, but how can we not comment on a potential suspect (ColorQ) that has proven in the past to be inconsistent?
 
ho, ho ,ho. But, relative readings are consistent-it starts way up and goes way down.

- - - Updated - - -

No, there is a cover on it. I read somewhere that sunlight would supposedly reduce the sodium Bromide concentration so I left the cover off for an afternoon.
 
Lamotte ColorQ-no comments please, meter wars are in other posts
Hmmmm, no. If you are going to present a problem that sounds like it could be testing error, and then tell us that you are using a testing device that has proven to be very unreliable we would be pretty dumb not to comment on that first. We would, in fact, be quite remiss to go chasing any other possibility when the most likely one is inaccurate testing. Until we can rule that out there really is no other answers we should even be considering.

There are no "meter wars". Just cold hard data. This data does not reflect favorably on the ColorQ. If you believe we are in error then we always welcome more data.
 
OK, let's talk about instrumentation and I agree that Lamotte’s product has been questioned. I ran an R&D lab for 20+ years for a company that made aquarium filters and commercial aquariums until the owner sold out and eventually all manuf. went to heck (China) and I “retired” (I was tired of the drive anyway). Although I was more into the mechanical and electrical part of the business, we had our own water chem lab with PhD on board, DNA sequencers, blah, blah and I'd fix, watch and study their instrumentation because they were clueless as to how the equipment worked. In my lab, I bought, made and built measurement systems across many physical parameters. The take away is this: accuracy and repeatability. I maintained several physical reference standards for comparison of my instrumentation. More important to me was the repeatability of the instrument. If it was repeatable, it could always be referenced to an absolute standard before submitting test results to UL , CSA, VDE or other standards based test labs. Believe me, manuf plunged ahead on every project with molds being cut, sales being lined up, etc. With hundreds of thousands of dollars already spent it was my job if my test results didn’t match theirs and approvals would be denied. Although there were plenty of skirmishes, my track record was 100% approval.

I have been helping my brother-in-law set up an exercise pool he was given. Like a “free” boat-you’ll spend thousands anyway. (Tip: Endless Pool helpline is not hydraulically savvy-good thing I am). Earlier, he had also acquired a $6,000 spa for $1,500 that he has been enjoying. But, he’s clueless about basic water chemistry, doesn’t care and I’m concerned that he or his family or the neighbor’s kids (or me and my wife for that matter) might get sick.

So, back to water chem 101 but how to measure? I'm old (71+) and although my hearing is excellent (having survived an earlier career in the rock and roll business) my eyesight is suspect. I tried some basic color comparison kits but couldn’t really tell the difference between slightly different shades even with glasses. Now, I never tried color comparison when I was young so I don’t know if it’s a matter of age or I never could do it anyway. So, even though it’s a very basic instrument, I decided on the Lamotte to get a readout. I read about possible non-repeatability on certain measurements but decided to get it anyway. I have had some strange Calcium hardness readings and I believe I read about this and supposedly it was resolved. Since I’ve used it only a few times I’m not ready to blame the instrument yet. Is it repeatable? My knowledge of sensors in general leads me to agree with someone in another post who opined that these inexpensive optical sensors are probably repeatable to a reasonable degree. I’m going to drill Lamotte on this issue and get a spec and it better be to my liking. For instance, my cat is diabetic, I’m using a meter to test him but the FDA allows a +/- 20% tolerance. 20% ?????? I called the manuf and asked how can I make a blood glucose curve with +/- 20% instrumentation??

If the Lamotte meter seems bogus I’ll get something else. BUT: when I do the DPD test for chlorine or Bromine, I can observe the reddish color. When Chlorine or Bromine levels are high, the color is a good reddish hue but when low, there is not much color. This is before the instrument produces a reading so, unless you are questioning the Lamotte reagents, the spa is not happy.
 
The bromine can be a pain.

How many gallons and how much bank did you add?
Do you have a bromine floater?
What setting is it on

I have a 600 gallon spa and I have to double the recommend bromide when filling it.

I also have to leave the floater on 6 for a few days. After I get the bromine up to 5, I back the floater down to 3/4 depending on usage.

Even doing all that, it still can fluctuate a lot.

PH, TA, and CH are all balanced
 
Assuming that your tests are valid, then you must have something in your water that is using up the bromine.
Excess bromide (bank) shouldn't be much of a problem.
I suspect biofilm in your plumbing. I'd do an AhhSome treatment and refill.
 
The spa is 400 gallons. I was so confused looking through the myriad of spa chemical bottles my brother-in-law had accumulated that I followed the directions for who knows what and ended up adding too much Sodium Bromide. Since I thought he wanted to use the spa right away (never did) I crushed a couple of bromine tabs and put them in the water. Testing later showed no Bromine and when removing the cover completely, I saw most of it just sitting on the bottom. So much for that idea. Since he had no Sodium Bromide amongst all the existing chemicals, I ordered some (local pool stores had never heard of it). One store sold me a one-step “Brominating Concentrate” and said it was what I needed (not). I tried it as directed and got some up and down readings varying from 3.9 to 7.1 but bromine was always gone a few hrs. later. Meantime I put two tabs in a floater. After getting the Sodium Bromide, first dose was 4 oz (instead of 2) and some old, clumpy monopersulphate. When no Bromine appeared I suspected the old, clumpy stuff so went and got a new bottle of Potassium peroxymonosulphate. This tickled the Bromine a bit (1.1) but, again it disappeared. So, I repeated the whole mistake again-4 oz. Sodium Bromide and the correct (for the spa size) 1.25 oz amount of shock. This got me a 5.5 Br. Reading so I was a happy camper until a few hours later when Br disappeared. Upon review, I realized my dosage mistake so I decided to attempt to balance the amount of shock to the amount of Sodium Bromide actually added and I put in another 2.5 oz. of shock which got me up to 10.0 for a few hours. At that point I posted my question on a couple of forums.

I think the Br. Should stabilize at some value, even if too high. So, either his filter is stuffed with chicken poop, pipes are bio filmed or something. I’m going to see if he has any cleaner and based on another suggestion, I’m going to super shock the sucker and see what happens before starting over.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thanks for responding guys (girls as well?). The floater looks basic. I’ll look at the frog. Doing ½ the dosage is a good suggestion and I’ve started to implement it in the pool. Addition is better than subtraction. I don’t know how to check for combined chlorine/bromine (yet) but no chlorine has been added unless the Brominating Concentrate contains a little. I put 4oz of shock in this morning but had to leave right away. 7 hrs. later Br.=9.6. I’m going to check again in 3 hrs. as my bro-in-law is returning from off island work (we’re on Maui) and I need to be able to tell him to stay out of the spa because of a jet fuel spill if necessary.
 
I'm not a chemist, but I think i read somewhere that the bromine or part of it turns into chlorine. Or something to that effect.


You should really get a Taylor test kit. You will get very accurate results. I have the 2006. That will allow you to test for FC, CC, TA, CH, & PH.
 
A Taylor test kit came with the exercise pool but was mostly empty. As I mentioned, I had trouble matching colors with the other kit they had so I got the Lamotte. But, I’ll probably get a Taylor just to have another comparison. Meantime, after adding another 4oz of shock yesterday morning Br. Levels might be starting to stabilize. At 5 pm Br.was 9.6 and this morning it was 8.6.

I still haven’t come across any mention of what is “normal” so I am still hoping that someone weighs in with information on expected bromine level decay in a spa that just “sits there” for a few days. Once stabilized, I thought bromine levels would remain relatively constant and drop less than chlorine would under the same conditions and that’s one reason for bromine’s popularity for spas.
 
A Taylor test kit came with the exercise pool but was mostly empty. As I mentioned, I had trouble matching colors with the other kit they had so I got the Lamotte. But, I’ll probably get a Taylor just to have another comparison. Meantime, after adding another 4oz of shock yesterday morning Br. Levels might be starting to stabilize. At 5 pm Br.was 9.6 and this morning it was 8.6.

I still haven’t come across any mention of what is “normal” so I am still hoping that someone weighs in with information on expected bromine level decay in a spa that just “sits there” for a few days. Once stabilized, I thought bromine levels would remain relatively constant and drop less than chlorine would under the same conditions and that’s one reason for bromine’s popularity for spas.
 
I'll point out the recommended FAS-DPD (chlorine/bromine) is not a color comparison test. It's reddish/pink that goes clear. Taylor says even those with red-green color blindness can spot the point it goes clear.

Putting FAS-DPD To The Test

Hardness and alkalinity switch colors from one to another, again no color comparison.

With a speedster that lights up the test tube from the bottom (and quickly mixes the drops into the sample) it's very easy to see the point the tests switch colors (or go clear). At that point you count drops, multiply by your factor (depends on test and sample size) to get your ppm.

Only one that is a color comparison in the recommended kit is pH, and you'd still have two other options for that (your Color-Q or a pH probe).
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.