Can't Get Alkalinity Under Control

[RyeRock23]

Only had the pool for about a month now (new install). Installer filled it with our garden hose despite telling us he would be trucking in "pool water." Alkalinity has been sky high since day 1. I have been using AquaChek 7-way pool strips and the highest it goes is 240 which it always reads. Pool installer "opened" the pool for us which I thought would also include complete balance of chemicals. He did initially put 1/4 gallon of muriatic acid in which didn't even touch the alkalinity. Ph was also sky high every strip (8.4 of more). Said to give it some time. We were also left with a salt level of 4800 which I addressed by draining pool water and replenishing using garden hose (which I believe is usually high in alkalinity). Salt is now around high 3900s. I got tired of "giving it some time" after a week and half so installer was by and he put 3/4 gallon muriatic acid in. I tested 24 hours later and little to no change on the ph/alkalinity with the strips. 3 days later I added 1 1/4 gallons muriatic acid. 18 hours later took sample to local pool store for first time and they read a ph of 6.8 and alkalinity of 145. I added clorox ph up powder per instructions with a target of around 7.2. 4 hours later and 24 hours later strip test showed around 7.2 ph and around 200 alkalinity. Not trusting the strips I ordered a Poolmaster 5-way dropper kit. 48 hours after ph up being added dropper kit shows ph of 7.5 and alkalinity of 260. 260!! Either the test is way wrong or how the heck did I go from pool store test at 145 to home kit test of 260 48 hours later? I know bringing down high alkalinity is a lengthy process because of the back and forth between bringing it down and then ph up and then down and up... but I'm sort of at a loss right now.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Rye..... please don't ever use "Guess strips" as they're far from accurate. Pool stores aren't much better, really.
What you needed to buy was a good test kit that contains the FAS-DPD tester along with drop tests for :
FC
CC
pH
TA
CH
CYA
Salt

Those are the tests we need values on. I believe that kit you ordered is missing something?
I use the TF-ProSalt www.tftestkits.net others prefer the K-2006C from Amazon. Those are really the only test kits we endorse as doing all we need.

Tell me about your pool? How long are you running the pump daily, and how long and high are you running the SWG? Do you have any spa or fountain features that cause pH to rise?

Don't use Dry Acid- its sulfates build up on the SWG cell. Always go for Muriatic Acid instead.
Please test your tap water to determine what the baseline alkalinity is for this water?

ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

Get back to me, okay?

Maddie

 

[RyeRock23]

Maddie,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, everything is still in limbo for me as a new pool owner. The installer oversized all of our equipment (more than double necessary for our gallons) which I think is also causing me some issues. I've tried running the pump on the Jandy controller schedule of 1250rpm all day and 3000rpm for 30 minutes to clear air out of basket. Unfortunately the schedule is failing to run and I haven't figured that out yet. Also recently learned heater won't kick on until about 2500 rpm which is way above gpm it requires so not sure what is going on there either. SWG seems go be okay all the way down to 1250rpm. So, the pump is running about 2500 rpm 24/7 right now. The SWG that was installed is more than twice our pool size. I'm having trouble getting that under control too because installer started us at 35 and I've bumped it down 5% every few days since. I'm now at 10 today because 15 was too high. I figure by the time I get this figured out, it's going to be peak swimming and high temps and will need to adjust and figure it out all over again.

I'll look into the test kit. Thanks for the recommendations.

No water features such as waterfall or fountain.

I've only used AcidBlue Muriatic Acid so far.

 

[Texas Splash]

I'll chime in to say first & foremost there's no doubt you need the TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit. Right now, everything with test strips and the pool store is guesswork at best. When you do get your own proper test kit, don't obsess about the TA. TA is high in your region, but that's not priority. Maintaining a good FC, CYA, and pH are number one right now. But we're a bit on hold until you can test properly. I will say that you should be able to lower the pump rpm to that 1,250-1,400 range. No need to run at higher speeds more than just a few minutes to purge air that might get trapped in the pump pot. If you have any other questions let us know.

 

[RyeRock23]

I'll chime in to say first & foremost there's no doubt you need the TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit. Right now, everything with test strips and the pool store is guesswork at best. When you do get your own proper test kit, don't obsess about the TA. TA is high in your region, but that's not priority. Maintaining a good FC, CYA, and pH are number one right now. But we're a bit on hold until you can test properly. I will say that you should be able to lower the pump rpm to that 1,250-1,400 range. No need to run at higher speeds more than just a few minutes to purge air that might get trapped in the pump pot. If you have any other questions let us know.

Thanks! Sort of off topic, but do you by chance know how accurate the SWG salinity readings are on the actual equipment? It is my assumption that they should be fairly accurate considering it's the device using the salt to make the chlorine. My pentair ichlor30 says it's accuracy is +/- 300. Says normal range is 3000-4500 with ideal at 3800. My equipment currently says 4000 so I should be within parameters? Ultimately just trying to find the value in getting a kit with a salt test or not before buying yet another kit.

 

[crusemm]

In my experience (see Previous Post) the salt reading on the equipment is accurate within a couple hundred ppm, which is close enough. different manufactureers, and even different cells can vary by a decent margin (I believe +/- 500 ppm in some cases).

 

[MITBeta]

how the heck did I go from pool store test at 145 to home kit test of 260 48 hours later?

I added clorox ph up powder per instructions with a target of around 7.2.

pH up is sodium carbonate or washing soda. It raises TA and pH. But the real problem is that you're chasing numbers and overcorrecting, mostly based on questionable data from guess strips and pool $tore tests.

The good news is that you have come to the right place. Take a deep breath and get your test kit ordered and we'll help get you straightened out.

The SWG that was installed is more than twice our pool size.

This is great news. You want your SWG to be oversized, and many installers don't do this. You can dial your chlorine production in very well using the right combination of percentage and pump runtime.

Are you running 24/7 now to heat the pool up, or for some other reason?

 

[RyeRock23]

pH up is sodium carbonate or washing soda. It raises TA and pH. But the real problem is that you're chasing numbers and overcorrecting, mostly based on questionable data from guess strips and pool $tore tests.

The good news is that you have come to the right place. Take a deep breath and get your test kit ordered and we'll help get you straightened out.


This is great news. You want your SWG to be oversized, and many installers don't do this. You can dial your chlorine production in very well using the right combination of percentage and pump runtime.

Are you running 24/7 now to heat the pool up, or for some other reason?

Running pump 24/7 right now at 2500rpm because it's what the installer told me to do until I know enough to begin making adjustments. The schedule function in my pump controller is not working despite repeated attempts to set it up per manual. My plan was to run 1250rpm 24/7 with 3000rpm for 30 min to clear air in basket. Controller doesn't seem to want to run this schedule despite it meeting manual instructions. The other option would be to run higher rpm for 4-6 hours twice/day, but I like the idea of keeping some flow around the clock. I'm hoping once I can establish a good pump run time then I can better gauge where the SWG needs to be set at.

It may be important to add that the pool is covered with no use all day most days right now. We've only swam in it 3 times in the past month primarily due to temps and kids activities.

 

[MITBeta]

@ajw22 : do you know who can help with programming a Jandy VSP?

 

[mknauss]

Post some pictures of your equipment pad.
Need to understand if you have Jandy automation or are adjusting the pump at the pump.

 

[RyeRock23]

Post some pictures of your equipment pad.
Need to understand if you have Jandy automation or are adjusting the pump at the pump.

 

[mknauss]

Great. The black box on the right of the picture. Do you control the pump from there?

 

[RyeRock23]

Great. The black box on the right of the picture. Do you control the pump from there?

Yes. I've followed the instructions in the manual for setting up a schedule, but it doesn't run despite saying enabled on the two schedules it allows to be created.

 

[mknauss]

That is an iQPUMP controller I believe. Do you have the manual for it?

EDIT -- I do not see an antenna so that might not be it. I am not that Jandy versed so lets ask @PoolGate

 

[RyeRock23]

That is an iQPUMP controller I believe. Do you have the manual for it?

EDIT -- I do not see an antenna so that might not be it. I am not that Jandy versed so lets ask @PoolGate

It's a Jandy Pro Series JEP-R VSP Digital Controller. Yes, been using the manual to create Schedule. I've Set the star button to 1250 RPM 11am On time and 1059am Off time (wasn't sure if it would get upset if I did 11-11) and Timeclock Enabled (how schedule is enabled). I've set button 2 to 2750RPM 10pm On Time and 1030pm Off time and Timeclock Enabled. According to the manual when two schedules overlap, the higher RPM will take over. Once the higher RPM schedule ends, it will resume the original schedule if still active (which it would be). Neither schedule will run. The only thing I can think of is that I'm causing it to fail by this statement from the manual: "Timeclock programs may be prematurely stopped by pressing the active speed key." I've been going back and forth between buttons as I check to ensure schedule is enabled, to adjust speed for swimming times and to adjust speed when I've added chemicals. When I get some time, maybe I should just let it go 24 hours from the point of enabling it and not mess with any buttons. Sort of seems silly that you can end a schedule early just by pressing the active speed key.

 

[mknauss]

When I get some time, maybe I should just let it go 24 hours from the point of enabling it and not mess with any buttons.

Do that. Most systems are disrupted by using manual functions. No real need to increase pump speed to add any chemicals. Just brush the area.

 

[RyeRock23]

I'll chime in to say first & foremost there's no doubt you need the TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit. Right now, everything with test strips and the pool store is guesswork at best. When you do get your own proper test kit, don't obsess about the TA. TA is high in your region, but that's not priority. Maintaining a good FC, CYA, and pH are number one right now. But we're a bit on hold until you can test properly. I will say that you should be able to lower the pump rpm to that 1,250-1,400 range. No need to run at higher speeds more than just a few minutes to purge air that might get trapped in the pump pot. If you have any other questions let us know.

@Texas Splash ,
I now have the Taylor K-2006C kit. I only had time today to grab a few samples and learn the kit. Here are my results:
FC = 10.5
CC = 0.5 (may have been lower, but I was using the steps where 1 drop = 0.5 rather than 0.2)
ph = 7.9
Alkalinity = 230

It looks to me that I have room to keep working on lowering that alkalinity with muriatic acid. The part I'm still trying to zero in is the chlorine from the SWG and pump run times. My current pump run times are 5a - 10a 2500RPM and 2p - 10p 2500RPM. There is not significant savings to lower the RPMs and/or run pump run times when using Jandy's calculator (Pool Pump Savings Calculator | Jandy) so I figure might as well keep moving/filtering some water. SWG is set at 15. With a FC of 10.5 I'm not sure which direction to attack it? Should I keep lowering the SWG (15 already seems really low to me) or do I keep reducing pump run times? I'm also a little unclear on how significant of an impact other things impact the FC. For example the last time someone was swimming in it was 4 days ago, we had quite a bit of rain yesterday (cover stayed on, but little always gets in, there's a ton of debris in water every time we open it, cover is on it almost all day for past 4 days, etc.

 

[MITBeta]

You need to know your CYA level before you can determine what your FC level should be. See the FC/CYA Levels.

Bather load will have some effect, as will rain, but generally, sunlight is the biggest factor in chlorine degradation.

 

[crusemm]

Things that impact FC:
Bather load
Organic debris inn the pool (leaves, pollen, etc.)
Rain (through washout and dilution)
and Sun
One thing I have not seen you post is your CYA reading. Without that the FC doesn't mean a lot. FC/CYA Levels says that FC of 10.5 is unsafe for any CYA less than 20

 

[gingrbredman]

The SWG that was installed is more than twice our pool size

That is great news! A lot of builders don't size them right. Your have a lot more flexibility on how you operate it.

The part I'm still trying to zero in is the chlorine from the SWG and pump run times.

That is the part I've seen most new owners struggle with. While there is a science behind how much chlorine that will output in a given amount of time, and the gallons of water in the pool, getting the right percentage can be a little bit of an art to dial it in. Add to the art of finding the right percentage based on pump run times, that number will change as the seasons move through, how much you have it covered.