Can I fix my plumbing?!

[GeoffM]

Yesterday it took me half an hour to get the pump to prime - open filter air pressure relief valve, take top off pump dome thing, fill with water, replace, turn on... rinse, repeat over and over again until it finally caught.

Today 45 minutes and I've given up. Beyond air leaks, the only thing left I can think of is to dismantle the pump/impeller to see anything obvious there. Anything else I've missed?

 

[madwil]

As someone mentioned wrap suspect areas with duct tape or plastic tape as temp fix and see if it helps. This will help is where the problems are.
Also if you do replace the pvc make sure to dry fit everything before gluing. That way you can make corrections easier if needed

 

[Jimrahbe]

Geoff,

One way to find a suction side air leak is to turn the pump on and while it is trying to prime, run a slow stream of water over the intake plumbing. When the water hits the leak it will often be sucked in and the pump will prime. Another technique is to wrap the intake plumbing with Saran Wrap... and see if that gets the pump to prime. Neither is a fix... just a way to identify where the intake plumbing is leaking.

It appears that you have already eliminated the pump lid O-Ring, but I would look at it again and make sure it is lubed well..

Jim R.

 

[GeoffM]

I used 8 yards of duct tape over the fittings I could wrap it around - the 3-way valve being a problem because of its multi concave nature. Didn't seem to affect anything. However, see below.

I then read about bypassing the filter. Well, I can't work out how to do that but the tall valve next to the filter is a 810-0013 slide valve. I read the instructions on that and backwashing crossed my mine. Read the filter instructions too and tried it. A whole load of sludge came out - hard to tell how much but I would estimate 3 cups worth of grey sediment once it dries out. Probably more as a load just washed away into the stonework and down the drains (yeah, I ought to read the local municipality rules). I had to prime with additional water after that but it did come back to life (ie pumping). Odd thing: the water in the dome is now swirling instead of just randomly sloshing. Is this a Good Thing? PSI about the same AFAICR. As for the duct tape, it now has drops of water on it. I don't think it got splashed so maybe this was backwashing forcing water out and proving that there is indeed a leak (or multiple leaks)?

I had the 3-way valve set to one intake only. When I slowly (over the course of minutes) switched it over to the other intake I lost prime again. I wonder if one of the intakes is clogged?

Talking of the skimmer, there are two holes at the bottom. One is clearly the (good) side of the 3-way valve given the suction through it. The other doesn't seem to have any flow. Best I can tell is that should either be capped underneath, or go to the main drain. But the 3-way valve also has another pipe so where does that come from? The main drain?

I feel a snaking in my future...

 

[GeoffM]

Right, backwash goes to sanitary sewer, not to storm drains. Makes sense. Not quite sure how to get from the filter to the house sewer connection though - something for another day. Also, reading other threads here, I believe I ought to open up the filter to inspect the contents. I have no idea when this was last serviced, and the pool guy has never mentioned or performed back washing in the 2 months I've been here (I'm usually here when he visits).

Another bonus: a lot less air coming out into the pool now, and the solar panels (which I enabled after letting the pump run for a while) are a lot quieter.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Geoff,

As you have already found out, you can't bypass a DE filter without having a multi-function valve (Round one).. You have a push/pull valve that lets you backwash or filter only.

So, have you never backwashed your DE filter before? If not, it could be packed with junk. I don't want to get you off track, but at some point soon you really need to take the DE filter apart and clean the grids.

Since you only have two pipes coming into your pump they can only be from two normal inputs.. Without a doubt, one of them is from the skimmer. The other one has to be from either the Main Drain or a vacuum port in the side wall of the pool.

If the skimmer has two "open" pipes under the skimmer basket, then one will go to the pump and the other one will be go to your main drain. One of these holes will have suction when the pump is on.. the other one will not have any suction. If the skimmer has one open pipe and one plugged pipe than the main drain is plumbed to your pump.

My guess is that your main drain is plumbed to the 2nd hole in your skimmer and that the three-way valve in front of your pump is selecting between your Skimmer and a Vacuum port.

I suggest you turn your three way valve all the way to the side that works best. With your pump running ensure that one of the pipes in the skimmer has good suction. With the pump running tell me what the filter pressure reads. (Filter air release shut)..

You can test for a plugged up skimmer line by turning off your pump and using a Drain King to force water from the skimmer into the pump or from the pump to the skimmer.

I can't see your whole pad, but if your pump output pipe has unions at both ends, you can disconnect it from the push/pull valve and loosen it at the pump. Turn the pipe away form the equipment and turn it on. If the problem is down stream from the pump, you should get a geyser of water out the open end of the pipe....

Jim R.

 

[GeoffM]

Thanks. Never backwashed - I thought that was the pool guy's job. Certainly never been told I should do it, wrongly or rightly. Now I know it's a simple 5 minute procedure I can be sure to do it frequently.

Because of the volume of water earlier flooding the area and running towards the road (not getting there) I didn't backwash for very long. I just did it again and held my hand under the outlet. Lots of debris still. So yes, a proper take apart is going to happen.

PSI currently 15, though if I put solar into the mix then it goes up to 20. I have a feeling I was wrong earlier and that the pressure before I started was ~20 without solar.

RE inlets: yes, one seems to be the vacuum port. It had a crawler thing attached to it on a long hose. I took all but one segment of hose off and there is definitely suction there. If I put the crawler thing back on then there is still suction and it walks around the pool floor. Yet if I switch the 3-way valve to just that side (now I know which side is which) it chokes up again and loses prime. Odd!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Geoff,

Sorry, I didn't know you had a pool boy. Suggest you fire the pool boy and do it yourself...

Either the vacuum hose is floating on the surface and letting air leak in.. or.. your pump pulls more water than it can get through the vacuum, so the pump becomes starved for water. When you want to run the vacuum, start with the skimmer full on, then slowly, turn the 3-way valve so that you draw as much water through the vacuum as possible, but not enough to cause the pump to starve.. most likely at about 70% vacuum and 30% skimmer or similar setting. It is ok to run 100% vacuum as long as the pump is working ok.

I suggest you leave the solar off until you have got the pump and filter running right. After that we can work on the solar..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[GeoffM]

The landlady already offered a discount on the rent if we did it ourselves so after today's discovery I'm even more keen!

Ok, lid taken off the filter. Eeek. I've spray washed the grids in place but couldn't get them out. Will try again tomorrow properly. Only thing is, putting it back together for a try and the join is spraying water everywhere (though primed nicely). Check the manual: apply lube to O-ring. Where is the O-ring? Um... I don't have one (though will look again tomorrow, just in case it managed to escape). However, it didn't leak before and it's the output side of the pump so not relevant to priming.

Noted about the solar and vacuum.

Thanks.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Geoff,

If this filter is like the DE filters that I have cleaned before, on the opposite side from your pic should be a pipe the connects the top part of the filter (called the manifold) to the bottom part of the filter. The top pipe just slips over the bottom pipe.

If you have this pipe, which will be right where the water comes in and goes out of the filter, then you should be able to just lift the whole grid assembly up and out. In between the two pipes is an O-ring you will need to lube.

The lid O-Ring is a big as the lid and between the top and bottom half.. It has to be there.. Clean it and lube it. Do NOT pull on it while cleaning as this will make it bigger (No jokes here...) You do not want that to happen otherwise it will be harder to reassemble.

Look at the top of the manifold and take note if it says "Short grid goes here".. If it says that then one of the grids will be narrower than the others and it needs to be put back in the right spot.
This is good to know before you take it apart...

Here is a link to the manual if you don't already have it... http://waterwayplastics.com/manuals/810-0131.0910.pdf

You need to inspect each grid to make sure there are no holes which will let the DE through, and it will just blow back into your pool.

Not sure if you have any DE, but most home stores, like Lowes and Home Depot sell it. It appears you have a 60 Sq. ft. filter.

You put the DE in a bucket and then add water and mix into a slurry. With the pump is running (Of course the filter is all back together and connected) you slowly pour the slurry into the skimmer. The push/pull valve is in the filter position..

The DE will coat the outside of the grids and capture all the junk in your pool water.

Good luck.. the first time I put one of these back together I almost cried, and it tool me an hour. The next time about 15 minutes, and now less than 5 minutes...

Jim R.

 

[GeoffM]

Thanks again for your help. I found the O ring floating inside the murky water in the bottom of the tank - obviously fell off as I lifted the lid. Cleaned, lubed, restored. I took the grid assembly out but still wasn't able to take it apart (I know its in the manual but time was the issue - I've spent far too long on this problem - another day).

15 PSI running now. Every time the pump has started since I partially cleaned the filters and then finished cleaning the bottom half the pump has primed straight away. Early days but I think we have found the problem!

One question: that muck, that is not normal, correct? Having never seen the DE I wondered whether it's that I'm seeing, not muck at all.

 

[kimkats]

Baby steps but getting it done! Nice job! You are asking good questions and doing what you need to do to learn your pool and equipment!

Kim

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thanks again for your help. I found the O ring floating inside the murky water in the bottom of the tank - obviously fell off as I lifted the lid. Cleaned, lubed, restored. I took the grid assembly out but still wasn't able to take it apart (I know its in the manual but time was the issue - I've spent far too long on this problem - another day).

15 PSI running now. Every time the pump has started since I partially cleaned the filters and then finished cleaning the bottom half the pump has primed straight away. Early days but I think we have found the problem!

One question: that muck, that is not normal, correct? Having never seen the DE I wondered whether it's that I'm seeing, not muck at all.

Geoff,

Did you add DE back into your filter?

Jim R.

 

[GeoffM]

Geoff,

Did you add DE back into your filter?

Jim R.

Not yet: I'd put it back together and turned it on to test, then the pool guy turned up and he noticed I hadn't seated the belt (?!) correctly to join the top and bottom halves together. By this time the wife was asleep from night shift and I couldn't go hammering around the belt to re-tighten it. So I have a big bag and rather expensive measuring scoop ($4.99! at your favorite national pool store) ready to dump in first thing tomorrow once I've fixed the belt.

Also went to fix the pool light. A numb pair of hands and arms later and do you think I can get the screw in the hole?! No! Another one for tomorrow.

 

[GeoffM]

Update: the 3-port valve and associated plumbing has been replaced by myself. I think it's okay to say this here: kudos to Temecula Pool & Spa Supply for taking the time to look at my pictures and find the exact parts required, even a small section of pipe thrown in, for less money than I'd budgeted. He saved me money on the pump connector by giving me a nipple instead of a connector and adapter that I thought I'd need. Leslie's is far closer but my local store seems to have the most socially inept people around.

After letting it cure I turned the pump on and went away for a couple of minutes. When I came back I thought I'd ballsed up big time as the plastic dome was solid - no splashing water! I turned it off, took the lid off, and realized it was full of water. Turned it back on to be sure and yep, the dome was completely full of water bar a small bubble at the top!

Rewind slightly: after I'd cleaned the filter, applied the DE, and tried to prime it yet again, I used a Drain King to try to force water in. Instead, what I found was that the Jandy valve was spraying water everywhere. Turn the system on and of course it's harder to see air being sucked in than water being forced out.

Also checked the chemistry myself using the Home Depot liquid test kit (not a full set, I know). All okay except alkalinity at ~65 instead of 80. Pool guy is being let go at the end of the month.