Caldera “fresh water salt system” effected by high phosphate levels

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MaureenD said:
water here is free (well) but electricity to pump it out and energy to heat it is outrageous here in New Hampshire 😅
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:ROFLMAO:

Even if it cost you $10 in electric to refill (which it didnt) it woulda been WAY less stressful and worth every penny

Going forward, plan to dump every 3-6 months depending on use. We don't usually see your problem, but the water getting away from you about now, one way or the other, is as common as it gets.

Also plan on purging with AhhSome. They test tubs at the factory and dump the water but don't empty the plumbing. Even with record delivery times, the pipes are nasty by the time you get them. If the tub sits in a warehouse for 16 months. :puker: So you'll want to purge for sure, and on future water changes.

Don't think of it as a therapeutic spa. Think of it as the pot that makes people soup. Laundry sauces, soaps, shampoos, sweat, body oils, half a margarita, and a slew of unmentionables. It's gonna get gross at some point no matter what you do, as James alluded with TDS.

I found with mine that not washing the suits everytime and keeping the girls heads above water reallllllly helped. So toss up in a bun and get several rounds on suits. If you think about it, in a properly balanced tub, the suit is far more sterile after the soak than from the wash.
 
*and don't let @mgtfp fool ya. He's a 3rd resident super genius. Although he hasn't been here as long, we were thrilled to have him join the team. Sometimes him, James and Matt even dumb it down enough that the rest of us have a chance of understanding it. :ROFLMAO:

@Mdragger88 too. She's the Heiress of Hot Tubbing.

You dont know us well yet but lemme tall ya. You've got some AMAZING eyes on you struggles. :)
 
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Most likely, a partial drain and refill would work to lower the salinity and solve the problem.

As far as dealing with phosphate, you have to know where the phosphate came from.

If it is in the fill water, then a drain and refill won't do anything.

If it's not in the fill water, then it is in some product that you added or the test results are wrong.

In any case, it's not due to phosphate in my opinion.

You can do a phosphate treatment to see if that does anything or drain and refill.

Either way, you should have a reliable way to test the salinity.
 
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Test strips are not accurate enough.

Phosphate cannot cause the salinity to read higher.

1,300 ppb is only 1.3 ppm.

There are only two ways that phosphate could increase the salinity reading.

1) Phosphate is a charged ion, so it does increase the conductivity of the water, but only by 1.3 ppm.

2) If phosphate was being oxidized by the cell plates, it could increase the reading, but phosphate is fully oxidized and it cannot be further oxidized.

Even if it could be oxidized, which it can’t be, but even if it could be oxidized, again, it’s only 1.3 ppm.

If someone tells you that phosphate can increase the salinity reading, ask them exactly how that happens.

As you can see in the below diagram, phosphate is in the +5 state, which means that all of the valence electrons are gone, there are no more to take and the phosphorous atom cannot be further oxidized.

1672933803672.png
 
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JamesW - sorry for the “snarky” - I was frustrated and tired and you must have missed my saying that I put in 9 new salt cells over a 3/4 week period.

Ok, as of right now I plan on ordering the Taylor K-1766 kit and testing my source water for phosphates before I do anything else.

You guys are awesome.

I am torn. I suspect a total redo will fix the problem but that won’t answer any questions so maybe I should remove the phosphates (IF they aren’t in the house water) and see if that proves them wrong cause Newdude, you are right, I expected to get on here and see all sorts of people having the same issues.
It’s still in the 30’s so maybe I won’t create a skating rink in the yard if I finally decide to change the water.
 
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Maureen,
One other thing to consider especially if this drain/refill remedy is short lived,
The freshwater system can be finicky due to tds & ch, the incidence of faulty cells, their expense, & their short lifespan (most don’t last 4 months as advertised).
It may be less of a headache & expense to switch to a separate swg like saltron mini or one of the controlOmatic options.
Depending upon your setup the cell can often be hidden in the filter compartment & be out of the way.
I have a saltron mini & the cells generally last me 18 months or so.
The controlOmatic cells last longer I believe.
 
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FreshWater Salt System Too High

Hello. I have a FreshWater Salt System in my Hot Springs spa that almost constantly stays in the “high” (warning) level. However, I only have the salt system set at level 3 out of 10 (10 is the highest). I’ve noticed that my chlorine levels are usually low too. Anyone else have this issue? I...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
The cell should be getting 12 volts DC and a maximum of 1.67 amps.

Has that been tested?

If yes, what were the voltage and the amperage readings?

Is the water temperature reading accurate?

When the system is reset, the cell will turn on and if the current is too high or low, it will shut off with a warning.

So, it will only work for a short period of time before it shuts down, so you have to have the test set up when the cell starts.

Note: This assumes that there is no actual salinity/conductivity tester, which it appears it does not have.

If it had a conductivity/salinity tester, it would probably give you a salinity reading.

With no actual conductivity/salinity sensor, then the main possible things that will cause a high salinity reading are:

1) High salinity.

2) High voltage to the cell (>12 volts DC).

3) Cell overproducing for some reason like maybe too big.

4) System not reading the current correctly.

5) If the “salinity” reading is temperature compensated, then a faulty temperature reading can make the salinity reading be inaccurate.

6) A setting or configuration error.
 
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JamesW said:
The cell should be getting 12 volts DC and a maximum of 1.67 amps.

Has that been tested?

If yes, what were the voltage and the amperage readings?

Is the water temperature reading accurate?

When the system is reset, the cell will turn on and if the current is too high or low, it will shut off with a warning.

So, it will only work for a short period of time before it shuts down, so you have to have the test set up when the cell starts.

Note: This assumes that there is no actual salinity/conductivity tester, which it appears it does not have.

If it had a conductivity/salinity tester, it would probably give you a salinity reading.

With no actual conductivity/salinity sensor, then the main possible things that will cause a high salinity reading are:

1) High salinity.

2) High voltage to the cell (>12 volts DC).

3) Cell overproducing for some reason like maybe too big.

4) System not reading the current correctly.

5) If the “salinity” reading is temperature compensated, then a faulty temperature reading can make the salinity reading be inaccurate.

6) A setting or configuration error.
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Thanks - a lot to check and think about. I will query my husband about the electrical stuff buy we are both a little fried right now.
I really appreciate your input. I will be sure to keep everyone updated on the progress. He is gone all day tomorrow so may not be for a few days. Salt test kit is on order.
 
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JamesW said:

FreshWater Salt System Too High

Hello. I have a FreshWater Salt System in my Hot Springs spa that almost constantly stays in the “high” (warning) level. However, I only have the salt system set at level 3 out of 10 (10 is the highest). I’ve noticed that my chlorine levels are usually low too. Anyone else have this issue? I...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Click to expand...
Thanks - I hadn’t found this thread. I read through it. I think you guys are giving me good info so will wait on the salt kit before I proceed. BTW one of the people at my dealer actually agreed that she didn’t think it was the phosphate level so it appears I have an ally there.
 
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There’s basically no way that phosphate can cause the salinity reading to be too high.

Manufacturers love to blame phosphates for just about everything when their product does not work and they can’t figure out why.

If they really knew what they were talking about, they could give a logical, scientific explanation about how and why phosphates could cause the salinity to read too high.

In the absence of a logical scientific explanation, it’s just made up nonsense.
 
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@MaureenD,
If you are just looking for peace of mind about what is in your fill water, there are filters you can use inline with the fill hose. I don't know what they will or will not remove, but perhaps the manufacturer would elaborate. Here's one (link), no endorsement intended.
 
JamesW said:
Manufacturers love to blame phosphates for just about everything when their product does not work and they can’t figure out why.
Click to expand...
Here’s my impression of a manufacturer’s question and answer forum:
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Q: Hi, my lights are not working, what can I check? - Larry W.

A: Hi, Larry, check your phosphates and get them below 1 part per trillion. Product Specialist Mark Laraby.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Q: Hi, my pump is not working, what can I check? - Sally K.

A: Hi, Sally, your phosphates are way too high. - Product Specialist Linda Bertram.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Q: Hi, my wifi is not connecting to the automation. What should I check? - Clark Griswold.

A: Hi, Clark, check your phosphates and get them below 1 part per quadrillion. Product Specialist Kim Commando.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
Q: Hi.
A: Phosphates
Q: Um, I didn't even ask my question yet.
A: It doesn't matter, the answer is always phosphates.
Q: Ok, my phosphate level is 7 phosphate molecules in my entire pool.
A: Well, that's still too high. Even a single phosphate molecule will cause every piece of equipment to malfunction. Don't contact us again until every single phosphate molecule is removed from the pool.
 
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Ok guys - some funny stuff above.
Sorry for the long delay. Got the Taylor salt test kit on Wednesday. Salt tested at 1800ppm. My test strip said 1750, the dip/osmosis test strip at the dealer said 1780 - maybe just lucky but regardless the salt is fine.
So, yesterday I bit the bullet and added 2oz (330 gal tub) phosphate remover. Direction said to test after 24 hrs.
Today, just tested phosphates and they are down to 100.
And just like magic, the salt system monitor is out of the red into the yellow.
I hear you all, sort of understand the science but WTH? It worked - so far. We’ll see if it continues to go down.
Any ideas?
 

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