Breaker Trippin' Out!

[Roguewave]

So my bargain basement Phoenix Spa has been chuggin' along just great for 16 years.

Until now.

First it stopped heating. Then a few days later the breaker tripped and it won't reset. Trips instantly.

(EDIT: I have unplugged every component coming out of the control box, including the heater and thermostat.)

The control box is a Balboa PHX01 (A Phoenix specific number maybe?

It also says model number: WH-PHX01-CCAJ

I'm handy, but I'm too busy right now and the Mrs. really misses... her liquid neck massager.

My question is, is a 16 year old control box and/or heater worth fixing? Or should I just tell my local favorite pool and spa guy to skip the initial service call and to just order me new stuff and install 'em asap?

And now I see this forum is a sub of chemistry. I just saw "Spas and Hot Tubs" and hit the go button. Perhaps it should be moved?

 

[JamesW]

Probably a fail heating element.

Do you have a picture of the heater?

 

[Jimrahbe]

RW,

I agree with James..

I'd at least disconnect the power from the heater itself and see if the circuit breaker still trips.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Roguewave]

Thanks guys.

I neglected to mention I had already tried unplugging everything including the heater and the thermostat.

But rather than continue to ASSume... you've inspired me to crack open the control box.

Now... I can safely wire nut these, but... it begs the questions...

Why?

And if I wire nut them, will they simply burn up again?

Odds are very good the hot side was fully tightened 16 years ago. My father and I hooked it up and he's an absolute, meticulous, electrical wizard!

But... there's a slight chance it wasn't.

Or...

Did the heater start going and began drawing too much juice?

Or...?

 

[JamesW]

Hard to tell what went wrong. Maybe corrosion caused high resistance. The wires carry a lot of current.

 

[RDspaguy]

If it were the heater, or any other component, it would be the circuit board relays burned not the terminal bar.
This is fairly common on old units. The terminals can loosen, and the copper can become compressed even if tightened thoroughly a decade ago. Alternating current (ac) creates a microscopic vibration in the wires that can have the same effect as jiggling the wire back and forth in the terminal and, over time, create a "loose" connection. And, as @JamesW said, corrosion from moisture can also occur with the same results.
Make sure you trim back the wires to expose "clean" copper, not darkened or dull, for your new connections, however you choose to make those connections.

 

[Roguewave]

Make sure you trim back the wires to expose "clean" copper, not darkened or dull, for your new connections, however you choose to make those connections.

Wow! That info about the microscopic vibrations was new... and really cool!

And the problem certainly could be from corrosion too.

But yes. I would definitely make sure I had clean wire for the fix. I find it's often a little ways back from the remaining bit of melted insulation.

The problem is, I swear the heater went out several days before the whole thing croaked. Perhaps there was still enough wire left to run the keypad for a few days but not enough for the heater and not quite burnt to the point of tripping the breaker?

I don't recall whether or not the pump would run after the heater failed. It's been dead for at least a coupla' weeks.

I'll trim back the insulation, cut the wire back to the shiny stuff, wrap the clean wire tips together with the dykes and then dielectric grease it in a good wire nut and see what happens.

Thanks!

 

[Roguewave]

Well the burnt wire / busbar was not the problem. After wire nutting the 3 together, the breaker still tripped.

But... I appear to have isolated the offending... connection.

When only the black wire with the yellow-ish, insulated, female spade connector (center of the photos) is pulled from the circuit, the breaker no longer trips. I have no idea what that runs, but all connections on the outside of the box have been disconnected and it still trips. So it must be something in the circuit board, right?

And at what point do I stop the diagnosis and call the pro to fix my hot tub? (so my wife is happy again) I have my own clients waiting.

 

[Jimrahbe]

When only the black wire with the yellow-ish, insulated, female spade connector (center of the photos) is pulled from the circuit, the breaker no longer trips. I have no idea what that runs,

RW,

The next step is to find where that wire goes..

Only you can tell when it makes sense to give up troubleshooting and move on to something more worthwhile..

With the offending wire removed, what does not work?? My guess is the Ozone machine, but that is just my guess.. If that is true, then button it up with the wire insulated, and start using the tub again..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Yuckypuck]

Base on the size of the wire and the proximity of the connection point to the inline fuse on the circuit board, you most likely have a bad transformer, pump motor or heater problem. Call a pro.

 

[CuckooChris]

I believe that is the power that goes to your relays for the pump, heater and possibly ozone. I would try disconnecting the wire from the relay that goes to your heater. If it doesn't trip, then you know it's the heater. If it still trips then try disconnecting the wire for the pump.

 

[Roguewave]

Base on the size of the wire and the proximity of the connection point to the inline fuse on the circuit board, you most likely have a bad transformer, pump motor or heater problem. Call a pro.

That's what I'm thinking. Only I don't think it's the pump. I'm confident I unplugged it.

The wiring diagram was little help. I think its purpose is to help a guy hook up the big stuff. I don't see anything leaving that fuse. It probably goes into the circuit board from there... and there are a pile of transistors and such that are not delineated on the diagram. One would have to remove it and try and trace the route. No thanks.

It appears the big blue and red transformer may just power the light?

I do see that the heater plugs in to a couple of those yellow jobs at the upper left. I could try unplugging it. BUT... if those yellow jobs are also transformers, then I wouldn't know if it's the heater itself or the transformer. Do those yellow jobs at the upper left look like transformers to anyone?

 

[CuckooChris]

I believe the blue/red transformer is just for the light.

The "yellow jobs" at the top of the board are relays, not transformers. Think of a relay as a light switch. You have power coming in to one side and then when you flip the switch it connects the circuit and allows the power to go through. A relay basically does the same thing, you have a power IN wire and a power OUT wire. So when the relay is activated (switch turned on), it completes the circuit and allows the power to flow through to whatever you're powering.

Sorry, was a little off on my earlier reply. I believe that wire in the middle with the yellow jacket is just the power wire that powers the circuit board. Plugs on to the board, goes through the fuse and then goes to the relays and other things. To disconnect the heater you will need to disconnect the wires from the relays, just make sure you are unplugging the OUT from the relay or, in other words, the wires that go from the relays to the heater. It's 220V, so you will have two. According to the schematic and looking at your picture, it would be the top left and the top middle relays. You should be able to follow the wires that go from those relays to the heater.

 

[RDspaguy]

The transformer powers all the low voltage for the circuit board, topside, and light. Transformers do not trip breakers unless wet or melted. Nor will any low voltage equipment.
The wire you are referring to is feeding the fuse, and on to the equipment as @CuckooChris said. Since pulling that fuse may shut down multiple things, you should disconnect individual components.
The heater is a good place to start, though the heater will usually trip the breaker immediately after you turn it on.
The ozonator is another common cause of a tripping breaker.

 

[Roguewave]

The ozonator was disconnected early on in this process and never reconnected. In fact... it hasn't worked in a year or 2 and based on my research here, I won't be replacing it.

Well... now I'm even more confused.

Since the offending lead is the one that maybe RUNS the relays... vs providing power to the equipment they switch, how could the heater trip the breaker only when that lead is connected to the board?

Here was my theory...

Since I had unhooked one side of the 3 heater relays during my testing and still had tripping, if the relays were trying to close, then the red may have still been providing 120 to one side of the heater... IF... the heater had shorted to ground.

So I disconnected the heater and tested it. Neither side gave me any continuity to my bond wire. And my bond wire checks out by giving me 121V when the other lead is clipped to one hot lead. So the heater's not grounded. And I get an ohm reading of 14 through the heater. Technically 16, but I was getting 2 direct (my alligator clip wire set may not be as good as my other ones.) So it's not open either.

BUT...

with the heater disconnected, the tub fires up. The control panel displays a cozy 44F and the pump runs like it should.

I add the heater back into the mix and the breaker trips again. And it IS immediate, as RDspaguy mentioned.

And with the heater unplugged, after closing the breaker, a second later I hear one relay. Then another relay a second after that. So it's odd to me that the heater is instantly tripping the breaker if the relays aren't even closed yet. But there are 2 more relays in there. Could be those 2 closing. It's just that I had thought the pump normally took longer than that to start after closing the breaker.

So what's going on?

Could one of the heater relays have an issue that is only made apparent when the heater is connected?

Or is that heater ohm reading too low and acting more like a short? From what I've read, it's in the ballpark, but I don't know what the specs are for this particular element.

Or...?

 

[Bama Rambler]

I have a few questions.
1) Where are you disconnecting the heater?
2) Did you check the heaters resistance between the element and the case itself?
3) What type and size is the breaker that feeds the spa?

 

[RDspaguy]

providing power to the equipment they switch,

That's what I meant. It may also provide power to the transformer, which is what controls the low voltage control (12v) side and turns the relays on and off.

the red may have still been providing 120 to one side of the heater... IF... the heater had shorted to ground.

Yes, and that one side is switched by only one relay controlled by the high limit logic, so it turns on as soon as power is turned on at the breaker causing the breaker to trip immediately, even before you remove your hand from it. If it runs for a while it's probably not the heater.

But there are 2 more relays in there.

Yes, 2 of the 3 are high limit controlled and one is thermostat controlled. So 2 close immediately (assuming the hi-li sensor is below 118f) while the third waits for a call for heat.
Depending on your tester, ground faults can be tough to test. The breaker could be the most sensitive tester you have, tripping at a difference of 5 milliamps (.005 amps). The short only has to be 48,000 ohms or less.
The ohm reading on the heater is fine.
Post a pic of the wire terminals on the heater.
Or just replace the heater element. 99% that's it.

 

[Roguewave]

I have a few questions.
1) Where are you disconnecting the heater?
2) Did you check the heaters resistance between the element and the case itself?
3) What type and size is the breaker that feeds the spa?

1. The two spade connectors at the relays

2. I thought of that about that after I had finished testing, but not. I didn't even know there should be resistance. I ASSumed it should be infinite. If not, then it seems like that wouldn't be good, but I've never seen one to know how they work

3. 50A GFCI

 

[Roguewave]

Post a pic of the wire terminals on the heater.
Or just replace the heater element. 99% that's it.

You sound like you've done this before.

It also sounds like I should stop diagnosing and just order the dang heater.

Looks like the whole 2" pipe assembly gets replaced? Balboa says removing the element voids the warranty, so...

Yes, the breaker trips instantaneously. Superman couldn't get his fingers off the lever before it trips. Good to know the breaker is doing its job.

And for you and Bama Rambler, my meter picked up no continuity between the heater wires and the heater case.

So even though my $5 Harbor Freight special is not picking up a ground fault, and despite the fact that it does display element resistance within spec, that there could still be a micro ground fault that the breaker is sensing. Yes?

 

[Roguewave]

Looks like it's this one. My control box part number is listed on the page.

I'm finding it at several retailers for much less than Balboa direct. Unless anyone has a suggestion... a trusted forum member, maybe?

Balboa 4.0 kW Spa Heater with Pressure Switch 15" (50067)