Blank slate/Pool build in Maryland

[Captchaos]

The water was 72 degrees yesterday and it's funny how warm it feels when it's in the 60s in the evening. The kids didn't seem to sleep any better that night so who knows.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to add a SWG at this point. I'm about done chasing, hauling and adding a gallon per day of liquid chlorine. We still have to go through final electrical and some other final inspection so I am in a holding pattern until then. After those pass, I will install myself. I'll probably start another thread in the proper section, but I'll probably go with a CircuPool RJ-45 Plus or RJ-60 Plus.

 

[bmoreswim]

Yes, you will love having a SWCG if you do that. I can't remember, was it you who ended up with the 2HP single speed but weren't able to easily change it out with your PB? Regardless, here in MD, with our 40K SWCG for a 27K pool, I only need at most 7-8 hours on 100% (for 2 ppm FC which is as high as my summer usage is). I tend to run it longer at a lower % though to get more skimming time. Although it would still take some time for payback, you could get the $400 VSP rebate from BGE or Pepco. Pepco is also for 2-speed. But another benefit is the VSP's are almost silent on lower speeds.

 

[Captchaos]

Yup, that was me. Builder wanted $1200 to upgrade to a variable speed pump so I passed. I am still on the single speed pump and am running it 6 hours per day on a janky (but working great!) Zwave power switch.

Interesting that you run at 100%, most on here say to buy a bigger SWG and run it lower to save cell life. I am at about 22k gallons so I was going to go with the RJ-45 PLUS or RJ-60 PLUS. The 60 seems like overkill but I would potentially have to replace the cell less? Also I was thinking maybe I can keep the single speed pump for now--i.e. run the pump less time but at a higher percentage on the SWG. I need to do more research.

Last summer I was burning about 3.5ppm per day, even with sufficient CYA. This year I seem to be burning more, but the pool has only been open for a week and this was a good bit new water so I am still bumping up CYA. I am yanking a lot of tree Crud and pollen out, and also need to clean the cartridge filter too. That's on the docket for this weekend.

 

[bmoreswim]

I don't actually run at 100%, that was just to show about 7 hours of cell time. I'm usually at 10-12 hours and 40-60% in the summer.

Running at 100% is exactly the same in terms of "using up" your SWCG's life versus 50% for twice as long. It is just total run time (or more specifically, lbs. of chlorine produced) that uses up a cell. The basic point of a larger cell is to be able to reduce runtime by getting the required FC into your pool quicker with a larger cell. So less pump runtime equals less electricity usage. Also there is the fact that the cell prices generally are more cost efficient at purchase in the larger sizes due to a lower cost per lifetime lb. of chlorine produced. And on some cells, like Pentair I believe, there are more electronics on the cell versus in the controller. So each replacement has to buy new electronics.

Do you use PoolMath app to log your results? I love to see it when people share their logs. If you click on my username, you will see a PoolMath Logs button to see all my logs, for better or worse. My notes sometimes get wordy, but I also won't remember any details if I don't write them down. There is often a backstory to everyone's pool readings too. Some of my readings seem odd when I look at them until I consider the scenario. Like the fact that most of my logs are before testing. Then I add chemicals but don't re-test. Because I'm confident in the result. So my levels in PoolMath mostly reflect lower FC or higher pH levels than is average for my pool.

 

[Captchaos]

Gotcha, I misread it, my bad. If you had it to do over again, would you pick a larger SWG? The 45 is more than twice as large as my pool, but the 60 is almost three times as much. More is always better, right?

I do use PoolMath, but I do not use the log. Much of the reason I post my numbers in here is so I remember what I tested and added.

 

[bmoreswim]

I have Hayward automation so 40K was by biggest option. You don't need to go x2 in our area/latitude. In the south, absolutely, so you don't have to run close to 24/7. We say x2 for all to cover everyone at no risk.

The only reason I wouldn't go way oversized is if the settings didn't allow you to go down below 10% by increments of 1. Because, I believe there are systems that only let you adjust by 5's unless you have their automation. I know that isn't Circupool, maybe Pentair?

 

[Captchaos]

Thanks, that makes sense. I did read that about the CircuPool that it could adjust in smaller increments. I'm going to start another thread, I have lots of questions on this thing!

 

[Captchaos]

I just found the SWG section in Pool Math which is very helpful. Unfortunately, it's leading me to believe that I can't reasonably generate enough FC with even the RJ-60 PLUS and single speed pump unless I want to spend a ton on electricity. Last summer I was burning about 3.5ppm per day. According to Pool Math, I will need to run the RJ-60 PLUS at 75% for 7 hours to raise the FC by 3.7. And of course, that's assuming that I am already at sufficient FC and only keeping up with what is being used each day. A pool party or some other event where FC is reduced even further would have me still supplementing with liquid chlorine.

Is my thinking right or am I off base? I'm running the pump at 6 hours per day now and with a single speed pump, I'd rather not run it any more than that.

 

[Captchaos]

Well I had decided to just wing it for another year to see how liquid chlorine worked out again because of my single speed pump. All was well as my wife was continually stocking me up on it from Walmart...

...and then

...everybody else in the county opened their pools too and chlorine is impossible to find again. Even most of the bleach was off of the shelf today. I know they got three pallets in on Thursday night but all three Walmarts are out of stock within a 50 mile radius as of this morning. I hope this isn’t a sign for things to come but last year they stopped carrying it altogether (or were selling it before I got there) in mid July and I was stuck grabbing it at the hardware store 1-3 bottles at a time and that seemed quite a bit weaker than Walmart brand. Maybe it wasn’t as fresh, not sure.

Either way, I’m still not able to make the math work on the SWG with a single speed pump, and this constant chlorine quest cannot continue. This sure puts a damper on the fun!

 

[bmoreswim]

Maybe you can make the math work by buying a VSP with BGE’s $400 rebate?

I hate to see people frustrated by bleach duty when SWG’s are so convenient. My pool would drive me crazy if I had to manually deliver it FC via bleach. But I’ve never had to so that is just speculation.

 

[Gorilla83]

That's a bummer about the lack of chlorine availability. In my area it's a bit hard to find "fresh" stock as well. Walmart is the best spot, but they sell out quickly as well. I'm glad I'm finally converted over to my SWCG so no more running out for that until the water is way cold!

My vote is bite bullet for both the VSP and SWCG now - especially if your power provider offers a rebate like mine did! The sooner you get it the sooner you can save on the electric bill, right?

 

[jimim]

The ease of it is worth its weight but also the safety of when gone away. No worry of coming home to algae. Even if I’m spending more money to run the pool bs running into a problem.

 

[Captchaos]

I'm just going to ramble on here for my own benefit, so disregard if this makes your eyes glaze over. I have this innate need to justify everything (usually with a spreadsheet).

I can get the pump for about $900 shopping around/waiting for sales, so after rebate that's $500. I would save a few bucks a month on run times--about $40/month last time I did the math but I would probably have to increase runtimes a little for the SWG, so let's say $30/month savings to be safe.

The SWG is about $900-1100 for the RJ-45 PLUS or RJ-60 PLUS.

Chlorine costs roughly $2/day (if I can find liquid chlorine at Walmart, it's more using bleach or hardware store prices) and let's say another $1/day for the hassle.

The numbers:
$900 (SWG) + $500 (Variable speed pump) = $1400
Subtract $30/month * 6 months savings = $180 saved in electricity
Subtract $3/day * 180 days = $540 saved in liquid chlorine
Total $1400 - $720 = $680 year one cost

So basically in year two, both of these completely pay for themselves if I discount the cost of a replacement salt cell. Is five years a safe bet for salt cell life?

 

[PoolGate]

The only monkey wrench I will throw in is the rebate. I got the $400 rebate from Potomac Edison and they require the pump to be "professionally" installed. All I supplied them was a "bill" from my pool builder on their letterhead that line-itemed the VSP pump and I got the $400 check in the mail within like 2 weeks. I am not sure if or how they verified anything.

Also see my chart below I think you will save more than $30/month. Essentially you are spending $200/month now in power costs for your pump if you are running 24x7. I am not sure how much power the SWG uses that you would need to add back in. I don't think they use much though.

Keep in mind the best reasons for going to a saltwater pool is not cost savings.

 

[bmoreswim]

I'm just going to ramble on here for my own benefit, so disregard if this makes your eyes glaze over. I have this innate need to justify everything (usually with a spreadsheet).

I can get the pump for about $900 shopping around/waiting for sales, so after rebate that's $500. I would save a few bucks a month on run times--about $40/month last time I did the math but I would probably have to increase runtimes a little for the SWG, so let's say $30/month savings to be safe.

The SWG is about $900-1100 for the RJ-45 PLUS or RJ-60 PLUS.

Chlorine costs roughly $2/day (if I can find liquid chlorine at Walmart, it's more using bleach or hardware store prices) and let's say another $1/day for the hassle.

The numbers:
$900 (SWG) + $500 (Variable speed pump) = $1400
Subtract $30/month * 6 months savings = $180 saved in electricity
Subtract $3/day * 180 days = $540 saved in liquid chlorine
Total $1400 - $720 = $680 year one cost

So basically in year two, both of these completely pay for themselves if I discount the cost of a replacement salt cell. Is five years a safe bet for salt cell life?

In MD, so long as the cell doesn't die early, 5 years is very safe, if sized 2x (mine is only 1.5x and still very sufficent for MD). I'm into season 7 on my Hayward T-cell 15. Though my FC use is less because of my autocover use during early/late season.

 

[Gorilla83]

I'm just going to ramble on here for my own benefit, so disregard if this makes your eyes glaze over. I have this innate need to justify everything (usually with a spreadsheet).

I can get the pump for about $900 shopping around/waiting for sales, so after rebate that's $500. I would save a few bucks a month on run times--about $40/month last time I did the math but I would probably have to increase runtimes a little for the SWG, so let's say $30/month savings to be safe.

The SWG is about $900-1100 for the RJ-45 PLUS or RJ-60 PLUS.

Chlorine costs roughly $2/day (if I can find liquid chlorine at Walmart, it's more using bleach or hardware store prices) and let's say another $1/day for the hassle.

The numbers:
$900 (SWG) + $500 (Variable speed pump) = $1400
Subtract $30/month * 6 months savings = $180 saved in electricity
Subtract $3/day * 180 days = $540 saved in liquid chlorine
Total $1400 - $720 = $680 year one cost

So basically in year two, both of these completely pay for themselves if I discount the cost of a replacement salt cell. Is five years a safe bet for salt cell life?

I often do the same excel exercises so I do understand

Also very important to me is the time I have to spend going to find and buy chlorine as well as the time to go down to the pool to dump it in each day. That's a little harder to quantify but I definitely value my time, especially since free time with 2 kids and 2 working parents is very hard to come by. Perhaps you could look at the time spent round trip for each as well as mileage and wear and tear on the car, haha.

 

[Captchaos]

The only monkey wrench I will throw in is the rebate. I got the $400 rebate from Potomac Edison and they require the pump to be "professionally" installed. All I supplied them was a "bill" from my pool builder on their letterhead that line-itemed the VSP pump and I got the $400 check in the mail within like 2 weeks. I am not sure if or how they verified anything.

Also see my chart below I think you will save more than $30/month. Essentially you are spending $200/month now in power costs for your pump if you are running 24x7. I am not sure how much power the SWG uses that you would need to add back in. I don't think they use much though.

Keep in mind the best reasons for going to a saltwater pool is not cost savings.

View attachment 104598

Good point, for HVAC rebates my electric company requires professional install but self install is allowed for the pool pumps. I am using 1976 watts according to the Zwave appliance switch I’m using for scheduling and I am running for 6 hours per day. That works out to about $47/month at my electric rates.

SWG electricity usage is minimal, I think it worked out to a few bucks a month last time I ran the numbers. Since the cost is low, I am not counting it.

In MD, so long as the cell doesn't die early, 5 years is very safe, if sized 2x (mine is only 1.5x and still very sufficent for MD). I'm into season 7 on my Hayward T-cell 15. Though my FC use is less because of my autocover use during early/late season.

Good info, thanks. I don’t think I’d go with anything below the RJ-45 Plus and my pool is about 22k gallons.

I often do the same excel exercises so I do understand

Also very important to me is the time I have to spend going to find and buy chlorine as well as the time to go down to the pool to dump it in each day. That's a little harder to quantify but I definitely value my time, especially since free time with 2 kids and 2 working parents is very hard to come by. Perhaps you could look at the time spent round trip for each as well as mileage and wear and tear on the car.

Trust me, I considered that! It’s too hard to quantify though!

 

[Captchaos]

Well here we are approaching season 3 with the pool. Myself and my family are pretty anxious to get it open this year because it's been so mild and with school looking to be canceled for the rest of the year, it'll be really helpful to entertain the kids.

Last year I did pretty well with liquid chlorine from Walmart, buying 8-15 bottles in bulk so I always had supply. This worked well and it was a lot less hassle to deal with chlorine than the year before when I couldn't find any several times throughout the season. That said, it's still kind of annoying to have to check the pool every day or every other day throughout the entire season and dump in chlorine after a long work day. This won't be much of an issue this year it seems but vacationing it's a hassle too asking someone to come over and dump in a bottle of chlorine but to make sure it's only done when my single speed pump is scheduled to run. I do have obvious concerns like everyone else around here in maintaining the supply of chlorine, but I was able to buy 15 bottles the other day so I'm good for a couple of weeks assuming my pool isn't a disaster when I take the cover off.

This leads me back to the SWG question, which also leads back to the variable speed pump question. Unfortunately, both of these seem to have gone up in price this year. The Jandy variable speed pump I bought back in 2018 and had to return was about $800 and then the IQPUMP wifi controller (which is really neat!) was about $75. I did read on TFP that Jandy apparently doesn't sell online anymore and my experience searching for them seems to support that. For example, viewing the pumps on Sunplay.com the only Jandy/Zodiac pump they have is a booster pump. They used to carry a full line of Jandy pumps. The supply of Jandy pumps on eBay has basically all but dried up too, so that leaves a local dealer which probably requires install, which I am not interested in. Even though I still have the Jandy IQPUMP and really liked it, I also considered switching to Pentair because it's highly regarded around here and ignoring the fact that the color won't match my existing Jandy waterfall pump. Pentair seems to jump from 1.5HP to 3HP and the price goes up significantly as well ($700ish to $1100-1200ish). My existing Jandy single speed pump installed by the builder is 2 HP so I wanted to meet or exceed that for the times I wanted to skim the pool.

Regarding the SWG, I posted in this very thread that it was "$800-900" and now I'm seeing $1200 for the Circupool I was planning to get. In addition, it doesn't seem to make sense to try running the SWG on a high setting to lower the run times on my single speed pump. But spending $1200 on the SWG and $1200+ on a variable speed pump is tough to swallow when it takes several years to come ahead on chlorine and electricity usage. I think I've also about had it with the tarp covers and will probably spring for the unnecessarily expensive safety cover this year as well, which is upwards of $4000, so the pump and SWG may just have to wait until next year!

 

[PoolGate]

Well here we are approaching season 3 with the pool. Myself and my family are pretty anxious to get it open this year because it's been so mild and with school looking to be canceled for the rest of the year, it'll be really helpful to entertain the kids.

Last year I did pretty well with liquid chlorine from Walmart, buying 8-15 bottles in bulk so I always had supply. This worked well and it was a lot less hassle to deal with chlorine than the year before when I couldn't find any several times throughout the season. That said, it's still kind of annoying to have to check the pool every day or every other day throughout the entire season and dump in chlorine after a long work day. This won't be much of an issue this year it seems but vacationing it's a hassle too asking someone to come over and dump in a bottle of chlorine but to make sure it's only done when my single speed pump is scheduled to run. I do have obvious concerns like everyone else around here in maintaining the supply of chlorine, but I was able to buy 15 bottles the other day so I'm good for a couple of weeks assuming my pool isn't a disaster when I take the cover off.

This leads me back to the SWG question, which also leads back to the variable speed pump question. Unfortunately, both of these seem to have gone up in price this year. The Jandy variable speed pump I bought back in 2018 and had to return was about $800 and then the IQPUMP wifi controller (which is really neat!) was about $75. I did read on TFP that Jandy apparently doesn't sell online anymore and my experience searching for them seems to support that. For example, viewing the pumps on Sunplay.com the only Jandy/Zodiac pump they have is a booster pump. They used to carry a full line of Jandy pumps. The supply of Jandy pumps on eBay has basically all but dried up too, so that leaves a local dealer which probably requires install, which I am not interested in. Even though I still have the Jandy IQPUMP and really liked it, I also considered switching to Pentair because it's highly regarded around here and ignoring the fact that the color won't match my existing Jandy waterfall pump. Pentair seems to jump from 1.5HP to 3HP and the price goes up significantly as well ($700ish to $1100-1200ish). My existing Jandy single speed pump installed by the builder is 2 HP so I wanted to meet or exceed that for the times I wanted to skim the pool.

Regarding the SWG, I posted in this very thread that it was "$800-900" and now I'm seeing $1200 for the Circupool I was planning to get. In addition, it doesn't seem to make sense to try running the SWG on a high setting to lower the run times on my single speed pump. But spending $1200 on the SWG and $1200+ on a variable speed pump is tough to swallow when it takes several years to come ahead on chlorine and electricity usage. I think I've also about had it with the tarp covers and will probably spring for the unnecessarily expensive safety cover this year as well, which is upwards of $4000, so the pump and SWG may just have to wait until next year!

I would go SWG this year you are going to have a hard time find enough bleach I think. You can get away with just the SWG no need to replace the pump right now.

 

[Captchaos]

I would go SWG this year you are going to have a hard time find enough bleach I think. You can get away with just the SWG no need to replace the pump right now.

You've convinced me (along with rereading this thread and other comments). Ordering the RJ-45 Plus. Now I just need to figure out installation options which is a topic for a new thread.