You subtract 1/3 of the CYA content from Total alkalinlity to arrive at the Carbonate alkalinity amount. If there is no CYA in the pool water, then Carbonate alkalinity is the same as Total alkalinity.
bicarbonate startup
- Thread starter anonapersona
- Start date
Well, all is going well here. They are exposing the finish now. The grey and turquoise flecks are starting to overpower the pale green plaster.
I had a great conversation with the CLI rep. He agreed that I did not want to do a hot acid start, which would be required if I were to try to get to a TA of 100 from the fill water TA of 220 ppm. He said that I should do as you and I had already worked out. Mostly just keeping the pH in a reasonable range. He stressed that I should test CH and expect that it would rise on its own so do not add much calcium at the start. I am fine with this, as in playing with the Pool Calculator I can see that small steps of less than 10 lbs of Calcium chloride will not upset the CSI too much as long as pH is at the proper level when I add that.
We talked at length about Hydration and how even brushing is vital to removing the soft film that will form over the surface. I did watch them flicking water over the surface and troweling but I think that the water they used did not seem excessive to me. There were marks.
The main body of the pool did get a nice time to dry, about 2 hours and the temps are warm now, over 80 I think, gusty winds.
I had a great conversation with the CLI rep. He agreed that I did not want to do a hot acid start, which would be required if I were to try to get to a TA of 100 from the fill water TA of 220 ppm. He said that I should do as you and I had already worked out. Mostly just keeping the pH in a reasonable range. He stressed that I should test CH and expect that it would rise on its own so do not add much calcium at the start. I am fine with this, as in playing with the Pool Calculator I can see that small steps of less than 10 lbs of Calcium chloride will not upset the CSI too much as long as pH is at the proper level when I add that.
We talked at length about Hydration and how even brushing is vital to removing the soft film that will form over the surface. I did watch them flicking water over the surface and troweling but I think that the water they used did not seem excessive to me. There were marks.
The main body of the pool did get a nice time to dry, about 2 hours and the temps are warm now, over 80 I think, gusty winds.
Sounds pretty good.
I would add calcium chloride as soon as possible to achieve balanced water. Adding calcium chloride before the soft water removes calcium from the plaster surface would be best. I suggest not allowing the calcium level rise "natually."
I would be very interested in learning what pH is, the CH,and the TA, as soon as the pool is full of water.
I hope it turns out good!
I would add calcium chloride as soon as possible to achieve balanced water. Adding calcium chloride before the soft water removes calcium from the plaster surface would be best. I suggest not allowing the calcium level rise "natually."
I would be very interested in learning what pH is, the CH,and the TA, as soon as the pool is full of water.
I hope it turns out good!
Congratulations on your new plaster. I will be watching your updates to learn from your experience.
Sorry for the delay, computer problems and then the family went out for dinner. Crawfish are in season and we have to enjoy that while they are available.
They filled the spa first so I will be balancing it separately. First test on fresh fill, after adding maybe a half cup or less of StartUp-Tec as it filled. pH 7.3, CH 50, TA 260, so CSI =-0.4
I know that my tap water will outgas CO2 and overnight pH will go to 8.3 just from that based on my sample a few days ago. So, to get CSI to nearly 0 now I could add 2.5 oz Calcium chloride but if pH goes to 8.3 overnight then CSI will be +0.8. If instead, I leave it alone, then when pH goes up to 8.3 CSI would be +0.6. I think better to add a bit now and plan to not let the pH get too high.
Now that I am back from dinner, and those measurements above are 3 hours old, I've retested and am amazed to see pH has fallen to 7.1. Not at all what I expected. So I went ahead and added 2.0 oz of calcium increaser. I brushed lightly and took a new sample. Now I will do a full test, TA and CH and see where we are.
Meanwhile, I will note that the spa fill was greenish (algae green) but mostly clear but the pool filling is looking clear and blueish. Not sure why.
They filled the spa first so I will be balancing it separately. First test on fresh fill, after adding maybe a half cup or less of StartUp-Tec as it filled. pH 7.3, CH 50, TA 260, so CSI =-0.4
I know that my tap water will outgas CO2 and overnight pH will go to 8.3 just from that based on my sample a few days ago. So, to get CSI to nearly 0 now I could add 2.5 oz Calcium chloride but if pH goes to 8.3 overnight then CSI will be +0.8. If instead, I leave it alone, then when pH goes up to 8.3 CSI would be +0.6. I think better to add a bit now and plan to not let the pH get too high.
Now that I am back from dinner, and those measurements above are 3 hours old, I've retested and am amazed to see pH has fallen to 7.1. Not at all what I expected. So I went ahead and added 2.0 oz of calcium increaser. I brushed lightly and took a new sample. Now I will do a full test, TA and CH and see where we are.
Meanwhile, I will note that the spa fill was greenish (algae green) but mostly clear but the pool filling is looking clear and blueish. Not sure why.
After adding 2 oz of Calcium Increaser, CH is 70 as expected, pH still 7.1, TA 250. CSI has gone from -0.39 (on first test when pH was 7.3) to -0.46. I wonder if there was some acid left in the floor of the spa.
In an hour I will recheck, then consider adding another 2.5 oz of calcium increaser to get CH to 100 and move the CSI to -0.32.
Cannot figure out why pH dropped. Maybe there was acid left in the fittings from the acid wash.
In an hour I will recheck, then consider adding another 2.5 oz of calcium increaser to get CH to 100 and move the CSI to -0.32.
Cannot figure out why pH dropped. Maybe there was acid left in the fittings from the acid wash.
Meanwhile, there is a misty rain. Or, not really rain, more like falling humidity. The wooden deck is damp but not wet. Wonder if this will damage the exposed plaster. Thought it was not going to rain until later tomorrow.
Dampness is not a problem. Only if water starts to collect and runs downward.
No plaster dust is a good sign.
Wouldn't take much acid to affect pH in small body of water. But the pH is fine. You are correct that it will rise some over night.
You are doing good and have a good handle on what to do.
No plaster dust is a good sign.
Wouldn't take much acid to affect pH in small body of water. But the pH is fine. You are correct that it will rise some over night.
You are doing good and have a good handle on what to do.
Overnight the spa pH has risen to only 7.5. CSI =-0.06 so essentially zero with in the testing parameters.
The spa water is an ugly algae green, I suspect the hose brought from the side yard may have been nasty inside. Or there was trash in the lines. Very tempting to empty it and refill. The pool, OTOH is a beautiful pale blue, icy blue, with the water less than a foot deep in the shallow end.
I know, this thread is useless without pictures.... I will take some more and get around to figuring out how to post them. (Not savy with photo posting.)
The spa water is an ugly algae green, I suspect the hose brought from the side yard may have been nasty inside. Or there was trash in the lines. Very tempting to empty it and refill. The pool, OTOH is a beautiful pale blue, icy blue, with the water less than a foot deep in the shallow end.
I know, this thread is useless without pictures.... I will take some more and get around to figuring out how to post them. (Not savy with photo posting.)
Pool is filling and a lovely color. Spa water was green from the start. Not sure why. Spa also has an oily film that we tried to soak up with a towel.
Pool finish is Jade, Sunstone Quartz. Very risky choice as I never was able to find a single photo of this finish in an actual pool.
Pool finish is Jade, Sunstone Quartz. Very risky choice as I never was able to find a single photo of this finish in an actual pool.
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11 AM Pool looks to be about half full. We added the other bottle of StartUp-Tec using a funnel and a pvc pipe to add it in small batches around different parts of the pool. Note, I had to push the pool plasterer a bit to get him to include the second bottle, and was not able to get a 3rd which I wanted because the directions say that for a 24K gallon pool you should use 3 bottles. My pool is 23K per my experience and calculations.
I got collected a sample from the pool and found pH 8.2, TA 300, CH 40. I suspect that they were more liberal in deactivating the acid inside the pool than they were inside the spa. That is my best guess for why the pool TA is higher than the fill water. The CSI is +0.47, the pool is beautifully clear.
Meanwhile, I would love to begin correcting the nasty green of the spa. Spa test; CH 140 (as expected with 8 AM dose), pH steady at 7.5, did not retest TA as I've done nothing to affect it. CSI +0.24. If I could circulate, I would, but this has to wait for the pool to fill.
Wiped a few drips from the skimmer areas. It looked like an iron stain forming but I think it is just the red of the rocks. I note a slight red stain lower on the wall. The crew mentioned that I could use a bit of acid to clean things like that, for we saw that happen at the spa returns also and they wiped away easily. I pulled the strainers from the skimmer and emptied some of the nasty water and debris there. If it rains, I may see red drips from the waterfall as well as some of the rocks that overhang the pool. Is there enough iron in these rocks to stain the plaster??? I've been told no, but I had seen that the interior of the skimmers as well as the old cart filters were red stained.
It may be that I will need to consider keeping sequesterant in the pool long term. I ceratainly will need to do that when we soda blast the calcium scale off the rocks. Beautec, a companion product to Startup-Tec that we used here, claims to be able to remove these calcium deposits at the waterline. I have to admit, some of these were probably my doing as I often switched to Cal-hypo for chlorination and I tend to let my pH stay on the high side. Note to self; if using Cal-hypo, lower the pH first and circulate well first. Then pre-dissolve, no more broadcasting the cal-hypo. For all my reading, I still do stupid things.
Really pleased with the color of the pool water. If it deepens over time as expected, that will be wonderful. One of the crew said he had seen this color and it looks like the ocean.
I got collected a sample from the pool and found pH 8.2, TA 300, CH 40. I suspect that they were more liberal in deactivating the acid inside the pool than they were inside the spa. That is my best guess for why the pool TA is higher than the fill water. The CSI is +0.47, the pool is beautifully clear.
Meanwhile, I would love to begin correcting the nasty green of the spa. Spa test; CH 140 (as expected with 8 AM dose), pH steady at 7.5, did not retest TA as I've done nothing to affect it. CSI +0.24. If I could circulate, I would, but this has to wait for the pool to fill.
Wiped a few drips from the skimmer areas. It looked like an iron stain forming but I think it is just the red of the rocks. I note a slight red stain lower on the wall. The crew mentioned that I could use a bit of acid to clean things like that, for we saw that happen at the spa returns also and they wiped away easily. I pulled the strainers from the skimmer and emptied some of the nasty water and debris there. If it rains, I may see red drips from the waterfall as well as some of the rocks that overhang the pool. Is there enough iron in these rocks to stain the plaster??? I've been told no, but I had seen that the interior of the skimmers as well as the old cart filters were red stained.
It may be that I will need to consider keeping sequesterant in the pool long term. I ceratainly will need to do that when we soda blast the calcium scale off the rocks. Beautec, a companion product to Startup-Tec that we used here, claims to be able to remove these calcium deposits at the waterline. I have to admit, some of these were probably my doing as I often switched to Cal-hypo for chlorination and I tend to let my pH stay on the high side. Note to self; if using Cal-hypo, lower the pH first and circulate well first. Then pre-dissolve, no more broadcasting the cal-hypo. For all my reading, I still do stupid things.
Really pleased with the color of the pool water. If it deepens over time as expected, that will be wonderful. One of the crew said he had seen this color and it looks like the ocean.
I agree and prefer lighter colors (as opposed to very dark colors) and think they look really good. I think you will be pleased once the pool is full and the water is filtered and sanitized.
onBalance said:
Choosing the pool finish color was a heartache for me. I selected a few and when the plasterer showed me those in a pool, I hated them. I hated the texture of the small pebble finish, I hated how dark the colors were in person. I think that due to the depth of my deep end and my ability to circulate water from the deep end over the huge waterfall I could have moderated the overheating of the pool in the summer and probably bought a few weeks of additional swimming time. But, the whole issue of loss of pigment to the harsh TX sun, the effect of the massive pollen load that hits my pool from pines followed by oaks, the risk of hydration problems due to TX plasterers using more water than you might want while troweling..... so many risks.
I noted that in the pools of a few "experts" they had white plaster with colored quartz. I tried to find a mix of barely tinted plaster that would not be too affected by pollen, but not be so different from the quartz color so that exposure problems would not be so visible. Plus I wanted to tend toward grey without using grey plaster. So, I was spinning back and forth between Smoke and Jade. Smoke was just SO dark in the pool, and pollen was reported to be a big deal by L Katona in Houston on GardenWeb. There were 3 or 4 very similar Sunstone Quartz colors that would have been fine but I wanted turquoise not so much a true blue. In blue, they had Blue, Super Blue, and Blue Quartz with varying amounts of white to grey. My Jade is most like Blue in that it has a barely tinted plaster with grey and black and turquoise instead of blue added. Cayman would have been a lighter version of that on the turquoise side where Blue Quartz was similar on the blue side.
I was still flip flopping from Cayman to Jade to Smoke 12 hours before they started. My husband was ready to have me committed. "Not that much difference between them!" Finally I flipped a coin and called the plasterer to change to Smoke. He talked me out of it based on pigment durability and, more importantly, that I'd have to wait a week to be rescheduled, and I'd mess up his other jobs as well.
Anyhow, I can see there are spots where they used too much water, or the exposure is not so great. I suspect that either that will get better or not. I can probably live with it in any case. I know that I can use a bit of wet/dry sandpaper to work on small spots and if there is any big deal, I can hire the plasterer to return with his underwater sanding equipment. I don't expect it to be perfect, hand crafted products rarely are. So expecting it to look like a Corian countertop is not realistic. But, I think it looks good overall. One problem area is clearly a different color, maybe stain leaking from the gunite they chipped all the way down to or stain from the flagstone steps adjacent to there, or simply a different lot of plaster. I note they were not trying to mix bags from different pallets at all and a few of the last bags were torn open and hardened. Anyhow, I cannot see that from the house or anywhere but from inside the pool, so I can ignore that.
Since the spa seemed stable, I did not test for 7 hours. In that time, the pH rose from 7.5 to 7.8. CH is the same but TA dropped to 200 from 250. CSI was +0.43. I added one oz of acid to drop pH to 7.6 for a calculated CSI of 0.23. I worry that I overshot because I used a 2 cup measure to dose 1 oz. If pH goes to 7.4 then CSI is neutral.
The pool pH is still 8.2 and it is still filling so I can't do anything yet.
Looks like the pool will be full sometime near midnight. It is cold and raining. Sigh. Guess we will need to prime the pump to get it going. And remember to drain the air off the top of the filter. Then once that is going, I'll add half the calculated acid to the pool to get to 7.8 and wait an hour then test and add the second half. When the pH is right, then I'll add half the calcium to get to 90. The other half can wait until morning. Somewhere I read to not add more than a quart of acid or 10 lbs of calcium increaser at a time. I dunno if that is reasonable, but I am able to take smaller steps since I am doing this myself and not relying on someone who drops in once a day to tend to this.
The pool pH is still 8.2 and it is still filling so I can't do anything yet.
Looks like the pool will be full sometime near midnight. It is cold and raining. Sigh. Guess we will need to prime the pump to get it going. And remember to drain the air off the top of the filter. Then once that is going, I'll add half the calculated acid to the pool to get to 7.8 and wait an hour then test and add the second half. When the pH is right, then I'll add half the calcium to get to 90. The other half can wait until morning. Somewhere I read to not add more than a quart of acid or 10 lbs of calcium increaser at a time. I dunno if that is reasonable, but I am able to take smaller steps since I am doing this myself and not relying on someone who drops in once a day to tend to this.
11 PM pool is up and running. Thanks to my husband who did not freak out when the union between the pump and filter gushed water. They had taken out the filter to replace the cracked pad beneath it. Turns out the nearby Magnolia tree had sent roots all through the pad, into the Styrofoam core, and that is why is was tilted and cracked. Poor guy trying to pull that up with it shot through and through with roots. Anyhow, that union, after some tightening, held when under pressure.
I added a quart of acid to the pool. Will test and redo soon. Thunder and lightening, glad we are inside now.
I added a quart of acid to the pool. Will test and redo soon. Thunder and lightening, glad we are inside now.
Midnight pH was 8.0 after the acid at 11 PM. Added more acid targeting a pH of 7.7 and added 10 lbs of calcium increaser. Accidentally spilled some undissolved calcium into the pool so we brushed, in the dark, in the rain, spooked by thunder.
8 AM pH was 7.9, TA dropped from 290 at midnight to 240 this morning. CH is now 80 as targeted last night. CSI at this point is +0.3. Added acid to target pH 7.7 and another 10 lbs of calcium increaser. CSI should remain at +0.28.
I brushed the whole pool with the skimmers turned off so all suction was from the main drain. I see no dust. I do see a bit of dirt from the rain, just the normal amount. Still raining so it is hard to judge whether the water is at all cloudy. Seems pretty clear through the rain. Got some organic stains from leaves or sticks or whatever that fell in the rain. One spot where water dripped from the skimmer and left a reddish mark on the wall.
The pool is circulating with spillover from the spa so I know that pH will rise due to that alone. I also note that they left some returns in odd positions, adjusted that, sort of. Need to recheck the base of the filter for leaks once it quits raining, tightened that. Oh, I see sun! I'll wait for the sun to really hit the pool before I post a photo.
8 AM pH was 7.9, TA dropped from 290 at midnight to 240 this morning. CH is now 80 as targeted last night. CSI at this point is +0.3. Added acid to target pH 7.7 and another 10 lbs of calcium increaser. CSI should remain at +0.28.
I brushed the whole pool with the skimmers turned off so all suction was from the main drain. I see no dust. I do see a bit of dirt from the rain, just the normal amount. Still raining so it is hard to judge whether the water is at all cloudy. Seems pretty clear through the rain. Got some organic stains from leaves or sticks or whatever that fell in the rain. One spot where water dripped from the skimmer and left a reddish mark on the wall.
The pool is circulating with spillover from the spa so I know that pH will rise due to that alone. I also note that they left some returns in odd positions, adjusted that, sort of. Need to recheck the base of the filter for leaks once it quits raining, tightened that. Oh, I see sun! I'll wait for the sun to really hit the pool before I post a photo.
I realize I have kinda gone off topic, that topic being Bicarbonate Startup.... I want to stress to anyone who may be following this thread.... I think what I saw in the spa and the pool proves that the Bicarb Startup really works.
I have no plaster dust. My freshly filled pool is crystal clear. The pool certainly wants a touch of chlorine to get a full sparkle going, but NPC guidelines tell me to wait for 72 hours before adding chlorine, so I guess I will do that. Can't hardly stand it though. It has not been 24 hours yet and the pool looks great. No dust at all on brushing this afternoon. None.
The spa, when filled, had a CSI of -0.47 vs the pool which had a CSI of +0.47. The difference seemed to be how well the acid was neutralized after exposing the quartz, but that is just my guess. The spa looked really ugly when water hit it. The pool was beautiful. When the two began to circulate together the nasty green fell into the deep end and by this afternoon it was gone.
I will post another photo tomorrow.
I have no plaster dust. My freshly filled pool is crystal clear. The pool certainly wants a touch of chlorine to get a full sparkle going, but NPC guidelines tell me to wait for 72 hours before adding chlorine, so I guess I will do that. Can't hardly stand it though. It has not been 24 hours yet and the pool looks great. No dust at all on brushing this afternoon. None.
The spa, when filled, had a CSI of -0.47 vs the pool which had a CSI of +0.47. The difference seemed to be how well the acid was neutralized after exposing the quartz, but that is just my guess. The spa looked really ugly when water hit it. The pool was beautiful. When the two began to circulate together the nasty green fell into the deep end and by this afternoon it was gone.
I will post another photo tomorrow.
