Best approach with PB's for competitive bid

[ICXC NIKA]

Hey folks, what's been the best path to negotiate a great deal for a in-ground pool: Start with the dream plan and peal back to fit budget, or start with the basic plan and build upto target budget? Would love to hear your thoughts. Also, any change of strategy considering how competitive everything is at the moment?

Some added info, we are looking to put in a large (16'x40') fiberglass pool and equipment(TBD but possible upgrades), additional 650sf of flatwork, 12'x16' pergula and stubs for NG and additional exterior outlet.

 

[spd500]

When we were doing bids it seemed like everyone of the builders wanted to quote us a pool with all of the upgrades. The builder that I ended up going with was the one that gave us a price on the pool/spa package with no upgrades and we added on the extra features that we felt were important based on the price of each upgrade. I can't say for sure that he was even any less expensive than some of the other builders, but with the other builders it reminded me of back when I sold used cars. Our managers used to give buyers full retail prices, with huge down payments, the highest interest rates, and nothing for their trade, it was called a four square sheet. When the customer refused the deal we were supposed to ask them which one of the four ways they were getting screwed over they had concern over and the manager would focus on that one area and still screw them over on the other three. This was the same feeling I had with most of the pool companies that gave us bids, they all wanted to finance the pool for us even though we are paying cash for the build, and they all wanted to start at the highest price possible.

 

[TheRaven]

Honestly the best path to a great deal is to not build right now. This is a builder's market for sure and you are going to have little to no negotiating leverage. At least in my area, it's near impossible to even get a builder to return your call right now. My renovation is well underway but it's been in the works for two years, and my builder is at the point where he's not quoting any new jobs at this time - he's already fully booked through 2021.

 

[sktn77a]

Buying a pool isn't like buying a car. Get a price from a builder you are comfortable with. If you ask them to lower the price, they will cut corners. Is that what you want?

 

[kazamali]

We worked with 5 PBs, took the best design and asked them all to quote out the most expensive option(least surprises)...then worked backwards from there. Surprisingly, 4 were within 5% and the 5th was 20% cheaper. I immediately threw out the lower one because it was clear they were cutting corners somewhere. The advice I was given by neighbors was not to over negotiate the price down...at some point, the PBs will have to make less than favored adjustments to meet your priceline. We also bidded out in July for an Oct/late fall start date. Like another person said, building in the off months is way better. Our Super had much more leeway to shift his crews around during inclement weather, was able to accommodate some design changes and his overall load was generally low. We got a LOT of attention from him and it paid off in the end.

 

[gingrbredman]

The one thing I did that got us to the right number was to first do all kinds of research on this forum. I poured through all the build pages, all the new posts, and learned as much as I could about everything, which helped me focus in on what exactly I wanted in my new pool, and what was important when it came time to talking to the builders.

For example, there are a ton of gunnite pool build posted and updated everyday. Now I'm not getting a gunnite pool, but thats not the important part. All the equipment, process, problems, solutions that go into these builds is kind of the same for any pool. While I found all the build fascinating (still do everyday), I found I learned a little more every day. It was kind of like learning a new language.

Rather than relying on having a PB tell me what was going to be included in the price, I told them what I wanted. Different builders use different equipment, so its not apples to apples. But I knew I wanted automation, a large cartridge filer, a SWCG 2x my pool volume, etc. By doing this, we were able to talk with pool builders with some confidence, and build the package that worked for us. A lot of builders in this area for FB have "packages", which is a good starting point. They will have filters that are probably too small, no SWCG, and maybe not enough lights. But I liked starting with their package, and they knew my requirements up front as well.

When it comes negotiating a great deal, in my experience with the process in the SW suburbs of Chicago, there doesn't seem to be a lot of room to haggle on prices. Like all parts of the country, PBs are busy with this spike in demand. But unlike other parts of the country, the building season is shorter. All the builders we spoke with were within a couple of percent of each other.

PBs in this area are booking builds for late spring/summer 2021 already. They get so many inquiries for new builds, a lot of them don't even bother to return phone calls or emails. They are that booked with work, they will actually just ignore potential new customers. I was able to work with my PB on the pricing of some of the options I wanted, but in the end, most of the PBs are going to sell their pool/product/service to someone who is willing to put down the deposit first. There is little interest from them to concede prices for one customer, when they have a few more lined up behind them waiting to pay the price the PB is asking.

 

[gingrbredman]

One more thing, PBs used to give a discount if you would sign up for a build late in the year around here, to lock your place in for the following build season. I talked to a few people who are in the process of building, and for the most part the builders in this area are not doing this, at least not for this season. There is such a line, they don't even have to give discounts here to lock you in anymore. It is a builders market for sure these days. At least by me it is.

 

[Stoopalini]

I followed much of the advice posted above, and ended up going with a large corporate PB. I opted out of key things during negotiation (autofill, SWG, landscape work we wanted, wall+enclosure for the equipment, etc ...). Then once building got started, I added these things in either by doing some of the work myself, or by talking with a particular sub's foreman and asking if they would do some extra work for cash while they were at my home.

All of this was done with clear transparency to my construction manager, who happens to be a really great guy and seems fine with customer saving some money along the way. So long as I don't ask for something that'll put one of his sub's behind schedule, he's quite happy for them to be making some extra cash and me to be getting some benefit.

As an example: My contract calls for an EasyTouch P4 (4 channel, single body of water automation controller). I asked the construction manager how much to change to the EasyTouch P4-SCG (same controller, just with salt control built in, with the transformer and the SWG cell). He said $1200, but his distributor was out of them. He said I could get the EasyTouch PS4-SCG (controller for Pool and Spa (ie: two bodies of water), with salt control built in, plus the transformer, plus 2 additional actuators for valve automation) for the same price though. So we went with that. If I had added this to the quote with the sales guy, it was somewhere around $3k. So for $1200, I was able to add extra relays (P4 vs. PS4), integrated salt control, and 2 additional actuators (total 3 instead of 1).

Another example: I want two limestone walls built around the equipment pad, so I asked the mason foreman if he could do this for me on the side. After receiving the A-OK from the construction manager, he said no problem, and would charge me $100 to pour the footers, and a very reasonable cost on building the walls (not sure what it is yet, as he's going to calc the sq/ft today and let me know).

So all of that to say ... if you can be hands on during the build process, you can take advantage of economies of scale, and add/adjust things along the way cheaper than you can do them by adding them to the contract.

Make sure your job site (ie: your yard/home) is one of the jobs the crews like going to as well. Don't pressure them on schedule etc .. Try to develop a relationship with them. This will go a long way to being able to work with them on any extras you may want them to do for you.

 

[bmoreswim]

Rather than relying on having a PB tell me what was going to be included in the price, I told them what I wanted. Different builders use different equipment, so its not apples to apples. But I knew I wanted automation, a large cartridge filer, a SWCG 2x my pool volume, etc. By doing this, we were able to talk with pool builders with some confidence, and build the package that worked for us.

In line with this thought is my preferred approach. Spec out everything you want down to every detail you can think of. It will probably be 2-3 pages of details. The PB's won't quote to it exactly, and equipment is often best left to their brand familiarity, but then back each quote to be in agreement with your specs. They'll realize they should have quoted to your spec originally. And one or two will think your a pain and not change. That's a good thing. Those are the PB's you didn't want anyway. The remaining ones will reach your desires and be at whatever price they are at. Then you compare the prices. At that point, I tended to focus less on the line item prices and instead on the bottom line. It matters little how much they charge for x if the total is better. And then of course you have to have a good feeling about them. Our choice ended up being the most expensive but it made the most sense. I also had them include our original (and perhaps modified) spec sheet in the contract terms because they inevitably wouldn't get as detailed as I wanted in their documentation. I'm walking through this process now with some friends. We'll create an analysis spreadsheet of the quotes that come back by every feature/item on the spec sheet.

 

[Joshwl2003]

WE took the approach of telling the builder the major things and non-negotiable items. So we told them we want a fairly large swim lane, freeform pool, over flow horse shoe shaped spa, large deck, screen, and as much automation as possible.. The spa was added after another builder did it and we liked it. We left things like water features open to each builder and went from there. This way we had methods to normalize the quotes to see if we were getting a good deal or being taken for a ride.

Most quotes that we are still debating are with-in a few thousand of each other so now we can decide who we truly enjoy working with.

Do not be afraid to go back and ask for redesign or tweaks over time. You learn so much durning the build process and your expectations and wants will change with it.